Meeting Jermaine Rowe

Speaker 1 0:03

Hello everyone , Welcome to another episode of Carry On Friends . And I am excited . I mean , when I mean excited , I mean excited , because every time there's a conversation before we actually hit record it just gives me goosebumps . And so I'm excited to have the wonderful Jermaine on the podcast . Jermaine , welcome . Give the people that wonderful vice .

Speaker 2 0:28

Hello everybody , now I feel on the spot . Thank you so much . Thank you . I mean I'm excited . I've been listening and watching some of your things and I support it , so to be a small part of it is meaningful to me , so thank you .

Speaker 1 0:40

Oh , my goodness , Thank you for being here . So why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit about who you are , Caribbean country you represent and the work you do , which we'll dive deeper into that work .

Speaker 2 0:52

Who am I ? The girl named Sugar . And how can I ? Just quoting a famous poet from the culture I'm from , which is Jamaica ? So yeah , born and raised Jamaica . But who am I ? I'm a child of God who is navigating purpose in this world and trying to do it through my storytelling art and trying to find answers and healing . So , as a theater maker , performer , writer , broadcaster and this teacher , I see those all as tools to fulfill purpose-driven things that I'm doing in life .

Speaker 1 1:25

You said so many things , I had to write notes like mud . You know . First of all , big up to referencing the poet . I mean , he is a poet . You understand what I'm saying . But you said theater medicate what was the term you use ?

Speaker 2 1:43

Theater maker , so like a theater creative yeah .

Speaker 1 1:45

Well , matika said theater , theater , medic like a cure .

Speaker 2 1:48

You know what ? Then again , I'm going to use it . I'm going to take it and use it .

Speaker 1 1:52

Yeah , because theater is cure , it's healing , it's all of these things , when you get to release that creative energy Absolutely and then you're a teacher , you know , a broadcaster .

Speaker 2 2:19

So let's start there Of all these titles , which is the one that you feel is like Jermaine Amidat . All of it is me , because those are tools I think sometimes we want to put . You know , we want to make the tools a thing and the tools a person . I'm a storyteller , so I think that was the easiest way to put it . Sometimes the story comes through being a dancer , Sometimes it comes through being an opera singer , Sometimes it comes through being a writer , Sometimes it comes through being a professor in a classroom , but all of it is coming from this need .

Speaker 2 2:47

So one of the things I do , the big umbrella I do is I create Afro-folklore , Caribbean magical realism in theater . So I use the folklore , I pull it forward and I do the structure of Greek mythology and Shakespeare with the folklore of Jamaican culture . Sometimes that's going to require me to just be a researcher and an anthropologist , like Zora Neale Hurston . Sometimes that's going to require me to be a professor in the classroom , teaching that Sometimes I need to dance it in a concert or sometimes I need to write a musical , and so I've expanded , like the Caribbean geniuses of the Jeffrey Holder and people who came before that , Professor Rex Nettleford and people who said you know , we can be multiple things .

Speaker 2 3:22

I found out when I moved to New York . It was frustrating for me because it was saying narrow your title , when are you from and what do you do . And I think I grew up in a space where , from high school in Jamaica , we were allowed to expand ourselves fully . You know , say hashtag no limits . But when you walk into programs , I say but limit yourself for this program . You know , and it's like no , the hashtag no limits for me really says I've been gifted to be all of those things . So meet me , the person you've never met before who actually can do all those things really well .

Speaker 1 3:53

I love that I'm a storyteller . The verbs are just expressions of that storytelling gene . That's the core of who I am . I love that let's take a step back about growing up in Jamaica . Tell me a little bit about where in Jamaica you're from .

Childhood in Spanish Town, Jamaica

Speaker 1 4:13

What was it like growing up ? And then I love to hear people's migration story and what happened when they reach America and adjusting to America life .

Speaker 2 4:23

Yeah , born and raised in Spanish town , jamaica . That was core for me because it was such a powerful time . My mother and my stepdad were kind of the head of the household and my sister , my brother and I were the siblings and that was very important to me because I grew up in Spanish town went to a school called Entom City Primary School and those are very formative years where I was very encouraged to find my voice as a singer , writer , performer , a long-time meadow meadow Like as soon as I knew myself . I was performing and creating and exploring and my mom was just dope at letting me do that . I found my voice first in church . I found my talents in church . And then high school St Catherine High School was monumental . Here's one of the secrets to my talents in church . And then high school St Catherine High School was monumental . Here's one of the secrets to my success .

Speaker 2 5:08

In high school I fell into a wonderful high school and around me were some gifted people . Of course , my teacher , professor Anin Wondel , was my form room teacher , who now pretty much runs the Music Institute in Jamaica . With him there were classmates like Grace Hamilton , who now is Spice . There was a classmate like Carlene Wall , who is now one of the world's most famous opera singers . There were people above me like Dennis Brooks , who's hosting TV in Jamaica , and Shari Richards , who was doing her amazing things in Africa right now and across the globe . I fell into this really fantastic group of talented students who were just exceptional . You felt like you found a crew . So then , from that space , we were doing everything .

Speaker 2 5:53

In high school . I was teased as enough head cook , hand buckle washer , everything . Every part knocked me . Today , if you need somebody for doing long jump , I'm doing long jump in sports there . If you need somebody for comma devotion and read the Bible , I'm going to be doing it . Any opportunity that came my way , I said yes to . So that was my growing up in Jamaica . So that part of myself I think there is something now that the world called ADHD that I realized if I was growing up in this time I would have been probably medicated , but it was my superpower . So one of my thing was it my teachers would encourage me to . If you're going to do this , you know you're going to do so much things , do them well , follow through , don't just show up and know you can't be too busy when you're in this space . You're in this space , so if you're in debating club meeting you're not thinking about performing arts or whatever you're here , and so it really taught me how to compartmentalize , how to follow through on goals . So I did the entire thing in high school JCDC , jamaica Cultural Development Center every JCDC I was in , and so my high school years was very performing arts as well as academic , because by the end of high school I was valedictorian and then I went on to become head boy . So I was also very grounded in school politics and government and how to manage time and how to manage people in terms of performing arts , president and doing different things .

Speaker 2 7:09

But the migration story didn't get fully there . The first time I left Jamaica was in high school to represent your country . There's something about representing your country at a young age , like a youth ambassador , that changed you how you saw the world . So at 17 , I was the youngest member of the debating society and the first team that won national schools debate for St Catherine High School , and the trip was a trip to Cuba , and I remember going to Cuba for the first time and the first time I stepped out of Jamaica to go anywhere and I walk into this country and they were speaking this language that you learned in a class and all of a sudden my brain was like wait a minute . You mean , it's not a subject , it's a real life thing . People actually live and speak . And so your mind started expanding to like what else is more than what I thought it was , what else is more than the thing that I was learning in classroom ?

Speaker 2 8:04

And then , for the following year , national Student Council sent me to represent Jamaica and Cuba at a festival .

Speaker 2 8:11

And then that also expanded my world , because there I was with a small contingencies of Jamaican , with all students across Latin America and the Caribbean , and all of us were these young , youth ambassadors , just like talking about different cultures .

Speaker 2 8:25

And I found myself with a Brazilian crew every night because they would have samba parties in the courtyard . I'm like , what is this ? So I was immersing in culture from such a young age . So all of that was happening . And then my final year of high school , the government selected my high school to represent them at Panafest in West Africa and we went to West Africa between St George's College and St Catherine Hyde , a merged performing arts group . We all went to West Africa and I remember singing Bob Marley's A Redemption Song , standing on the slave castle with all these Ghanaians and people from West Africa there , a sea of them leading this song and hearing the entire audience sing Redemption Song with you . So those experiences , before I even moved to America , formed such an important part in terms of how I was going to view and shape my responsibility in the world .

Speaker 1 9:18

All right , so many places I want to start , but I'm going to start with a place that moves me . When you started telling the story , the next poet come up in my head I grew

Youth Ambassador Experiences Abroad

Speaker 1 9:28

up in a place called in some city .

Speaker 2 9:31

yes , I know , people come from it like I mean grace jones coffee , like there's so like there was , there's so much there's so much yeah , there's so much in our soil and I think one of the things I'm excited about is and so I take the things that , the value of the things that I've learned from Jamaica to export to the world , which is our culture and our spaces , because there's a lot of wealth in our society in terms of the conversations that you have cross-generationally . So there was something about where I grew up . We grew up in financial poverty , but experientially wealthy .

Speaker 1 10:11

Say that one more time again . Say it , because I can tell you where I grew up too . I grew up in a flunker Moby and let me tell you we never rich , but let me tell you experience and love and community listen I remember going for a lot of my characters .

Speaker 2 10:29

Now I write honoring people that I that gave me so much love . There's an old lady . You know , when you're young she probably was like maybe 50 or 60 , but in my mind she was probably 100 . You know you're thinking somebody else . She's much older but we didn't for the longest time even have a refrigerator , so she would be the ice lady . So go around , miss sylvia my house .

Speaker 1 10:48

My grandmother was the ice lady I , I tell you like separate ends of the island same story , same story .

Speaker 2 10:56

So miss sylvia was the ice lady . And miss sylvia , I can tell you something , she adored me so much and who are just young , bright , little pitney , she now sell german ice . You know , because you know , say by some point in the evening , german . And if I come there and somebody sell the ice , drama in the house , you know , oh , you sell the ice . You know it's a german , come every evening , forget . So that was the kind of love it was like , tangible , it was no , we take care of each other , this young man , and , and when I would go to get the ice , my mother would tell me say we want the ice for cool the drinks in us , no matter still , and coming . No see , I'm a silver love sitting on a dock jeremy , and I'm gonna make the ice .

Speaker 2 11:36

Jeremy , and I'm by the ice so , my god , because my silver yacht sitting on a veranda . She asked me about school , I mean , and I would be actually fascinated and interested . There I was , this like nine 10-year-old kid sitting down with someone in their 60s comfortably having full conversations , and that was research . I didn't realize she was gifting me her stories about her . She became a child talking to me . She was not the grandmother of the kids in the yard , she wasn't the mother , she wasn't the wife , she was just a woman talking to a young child and that's why she loved when we come by ice .

Speaker 2 12:15

And that's how I grew up in a neighborhood of people who that was what was happening the boys on the streets who were , you know , did a panic corner with them ganja and them ting . And I remember when one of them from another neighborhood was passing by and said I was walking past him and I said nothing and the boy said leave him alone , now , one day I'll go somewhere . So there was that protection as well and care . So I grew up in that . So the wealth experientially was amazing .

Speaker 1 12:42

You know , as you're talking , it resonates with me because it feels like when , when a lot of people are like , oh , I can't be around old people , old people gravitate towards me because I listen , I engage , I know how to have a conversation with them and draw out the stories that they have . And I think that has to do with , like the way maybe we grew up in a particular time where elders were respected , but they also acknowledged that they were young at one point and weren't afraid to tell the stories about when they were young . The other thing that you said that really connected with me and it's been a thread in a lot of the conversation the role that church plays in our creative expression . Everyone says , carrie , how you love you , just go up there , have a conversation . I said , well , I never had no choice , I went to church . And when you go to church , sunday school have Sunday school anniversary , you have the women's ministry anniversary , everybody have an anniversary and you basically had to go up there and recite either Bible verses or some other poem .

Speaker 1 13:49

And church was that place . You were able to craft those speaking skills and have a stage presence and learn to perform , because back then most of the Sunday school teachers were actually school teachers , but then most of the Sunday school teachers were actually school teachers and they were taking what they were probably doing around festival time . You said it , jcdc around festival time . I didn't get to perform , but this whole aspect of schools performing and how that created a garden and a wealth of experience for young people and I'm curious I haven't kept up with this . Is that still something that happens in school ? Is it as rich as it was when we were growing up ? I don't know . Maybe you could tell me .

Speaker 2 14:37

My sister's a school teacher . She actually just left Jamaica and moved to Florida to teach , but my sister was a teacher there for years and my sister , like me , is very creative and she became the cultural I guess supervisor liaison person for the school and they are . Jcdc is still very , very , very active . They have a wonderful thing called Read Across Jamaica Day where the entire island is reading and I've been invited in via Zoom the gift of Zoom now to like read to the kids some of my scripts that I'm developing Right now .

Speaker 2 15:09

There's something going on in Jamaica that I tap into that I love All Together Sing , I think it's called , where high schools , just like you have school challenge quiz , you have debate , national schools debating . They now have a high school singing program where all these high schools come together and perform every week based on a particular lens , like folk this week or gospel , and I've actually collaborated with one of the judges there , joy Brown , to help because she's a folkloric artist , she's brilliant to help score some of the music I'm developing , because , as I'm developing music as a composer and I'm pulling a lot from the folklore , I also know the importance of documenting it and so I want to make sure sheet musics are available , and so I'm pulling from Jamaica musicians who know the rhythms better than just transcribing it , to make sure it's documented in a way that anybody can take it up and under the layers of storytelling that the culture requires .

Speaker 1 16:03

So talk to me about your mentors . So for you to be the artist you are , you've had to have mentors , people who guided you on this journey . Who are some of those mentors for you ?

Speaker 2 16:15

Oh my goodness , there are so many . I think the first time I recognized what a mentor was was my first mentor was my high school teacher , anil Mandal , and then there was Hugh Dowse , but as I got older they came into different forms and shape . When I got to university , that's when the idea of mentorship sunk in and I understood that it was not just your teachers , but it could be just influential people in your life . One of the first mentors when I went to university that was in this was Professor Rex Nuttelford . I was dancing in high school and then a movement

Mentors and Building Creative Support Systems

Speaker 2 16:45

dance company found me and grabbed me up for a moment , and then National Dance of the Company of Jamaica invited me to join NDTC . So through that lens I met Professor Rex Nettleford , and after that first year of working with him he was just fascinated with the similarities of . I was such an active academic and student because I was a journalism major at the University of the West Indies , but I was also such a strong , powerful dancer , and so he was really encouraging me to just navigate the both .

Speaker 2 17:12

I think when we really clicked was years afterwards , when I moved to New York City and some opportunities were coming my way , literally one year before I finished my university degree . He was very much like Jermaine , finish your degree . It's important . He was someone that I could call and ask those big questions to like what do you think I should do ? I'm weighing these opportunities , what do you think I should do ? So that was such a gift of having someone like Professor Nethleford , like Caribbean royalty , genius royalty .

Speaker 2 17:37

And , of course , when I was at Carmack , some of the people I met who were very influential were Alma Markian and Faye Ellington . Now Faye has become like my second mom in so many ways . We speak a lot and so Faye of course , cultural , wealth , of stories and icon is someone that I can call and say hey , look at this girl , what do you think about this ? Like she would throw me so much information and stories about how they were developing things . I've interviewed her sometimes on things too , about things . And another one that I hold dear is Michael Anthony Cuff , another Jamaican international man who is very , very helpful .

Speaker 2 18:11

But as I moved to the US , of course there's so many others that I came in contact with . I think that we talk about more when I moved to the American side of my life or the international side of my life , but those are the ones in Jamaica that I still . Professor Renette Ford passed side of my life , but those are the ones in jamaica that I still for professor renek , for uh passed away . But there are some people , that people that I still speak to on a regular basis , that I can it move from just career mentorship stuff and we can talk about just life , like how you manage your money when you're a trafficker or two things as rts . How do you figure that ?

Speaker 2 18:39

So like real life things . I can really call a lot of these mentors and people in my life . But I have , beyond those big mentors , a really healthy group of friends . I have a really supportive group of friends . When I say friends I mean like people I know from primary school . My friendships are 20 , 30 years long , like I have really healthy , long friendships that see you from Jamaica , spanish town days , walking home every day from school together because we broke and we used a taxi fare by lunch .

Speaker 1 19:16

Stop talking . We're business , Stop talking .

Speaker 2 19:22

And those friends are still in my life today and we can remind each other of our growth , especially when we're feeling like , oh , it's hard and we're not getting anywhere . It's like remember the full journey , look at the , remember the full picture of the entire thing you know . So those people are still in my life and I'm very grateful for that .

Speaker 1 19:40

I love that you said that , because I've you know I'm talking to Shari , who you know . You know you feel frustrated with the lack of growth . So you saying that look at the full picture , not just this point in time , the full picture , and you know that's . That's um good perspective . But when you're in the moment , stewing cause , no , no , go on , like what are some of the things that you use ? You know , because your friends could encourage you but talk to talk to truth . Sometime they encourage you , but you're still still feel our way .

Speaker 2 20:11

Well , um , today I have a lot of tools because one therapy was very helpful for me so I went to I've been to therapy quite a few times . Um , you know , it's like navigating different things in life and that the first thing you taught me how to do was to kind of see myself and know your patterns and gain tools about , okay , what can you change and what can you release ? What's outside of you , what's from within ? That's one tool . Of course , my divine work is important to me , prayer is important to me , but on a day-to-day basis I start my day working out and meditating . That's one of my like morning get up now at this time in the year because it's cool enough where a morning run is possible . Where I live , I literally live next to Central Park , so I can just go to the park in the morning and I can run the park and then at some point I stop and I have to take a five-minute meditation . And that was gifted to me by my neighbor and my elderly neighbor who's in her 70s , like maybe you should meditate more as a part of your ritual and practice , and she gave me her ways of meditating that worked for her and I added it to my life and I realized , starting my day that way , giving myself daily goals so that at the end of the day , I feel like I accomplished something . And it could be simple . It could be just like send out a true job application today If you're looking for a new job cool , that's done . So you feel accomplished even in the small things . Um , because the big , the bigger deadline , because I'm such a big deadline person , I have things that's due next march , that I'm working on residencies that's coming up , or , like I have a project you know projects coming up much later in the year . I will . You can still get so focused on that that it's not happening fast enough because you have to write a brand for it or you have to , like , cast it and you haven't written the script yet .

Speaker 2 21:53

So the daily goals are helpful to put into check . You know what ? Today I said I was going to hit the gym and get the supermarket and the laundry done . Good , those were done today . Two less things I have to put back to tomorrow . So those are the things I tried . I try to do daily goals as a part of my tools and sometimes rest , just so you know what I'm tired . I'm tired . I'm acknowledging that you're tired because I was struggling with resting as workless and lazy , and some of it is coming from a brigade . Oh , you're tired because I was struggling with resting as workless and lazy , and some of it is coming from a brigade .

Speaker 1 22:28

Oh , you're not bad I don't know .

Speaker 2 22:29

I'm like a man that makes them get you in a bed .

Speaker 1 22:33

There's a topic I want to talk about , about that , you know , like releasing this idea and I , you know , I even come up the other day , so it's so important to bring it up , like I was talking to somebody because I watch so much TV , and it's like releasing this idea of resting or , you know , laying down is worklessness or lack of ambition , when you know , no , it is caring for my body and the refueling that I need to actually do the ambitious things .

Speaker 1 23:07

So I'm glad you said that and it's cultural . A lot of things are so cultural and second nature . They're like a talk track . It's on autopilot in the back of our head and we have to catch ourselves sometimes for check to see , you know , wait a minute , all right back up off of this and , like you know , so I'm I'm glad you're sharing this because I think part of the creative process and I think um being ambitious jamaican kids who have learned heights of great men , reach and get you know , like all of these you know , we , we , we , we , we know the ambition thing and we feel like anything less is a failure or is not good enough .

Speaker 1 23:54

And setting small daily goals is a nice incremental step to put perspective and put goals in check , Because how we climb Mount Everest one step at a time , we don't just fly to the top right . So I'm really glad you shared that . Now we're not even touching the bulk of what you do , right , so I want to shift . You're a professor of acting at LaGuardia Community College . We're not even talking about your journalism background . So let's start with the journalism and then go into . Yes , teacher .

Speaker 2 24:36

So I'm going to chronologically go from Jamaica into New York because I think that will tie it into . So I was a journalism major at Karamak

From Journalism to Dance to Theater

Speaker 2 24:45

and at the end of that funny enough , because I was also dancing and doing journalism I got the gift of talking about mentorship . There are two people in Jamaica I always celebrated with this moment Lance and Ed Steins from Lakatko , and Clive Thompson , an amazing dancer and just Jamaican royalty , would see me dance in Jamaica and would gift me by saying hey , you look like you have the aptitude for international career . And people kept saying that to me a lot . And my dear friend Carl Williams was very helpful and supportive , encouraging me to the application process to get to the Alvin Ailey School of Dance in New York City . And so in my the summer before my final year at UWE , I got a scholarship to Alvin Ailey . So I'm like I'm going to try this dancing for a semester and see what happens . By the end of that semester , not only was my heart and everything fulfilled , I was getting an offer for Broadway already and I was like whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa , whoa . And that's when Professor Merzendorf , a guy , that said come back under your degree , finish your degree and then the world is going to be yours , and that's what I did .

Speaker 2 25:43

So when I moved to New York . I moved to New York to pursue this career as a dancer and pause my journalism life . To go back to that never happened , because it just kind of kept rolling . So then the cliff note version of it is by the end of that year I was in a dance company , dance Theater of Harlem , which is a famous ballet company , and then from that I was scouted and sent over to the UK where I did Lion King and this other Broadway show called Fela , which brought me back to New York .

Speaker 2 26:08

The journalism and writing thing came later on when I went back to . In between that I would part-time as a critic , a BroadwayWorldcom critic but I really used my journalism training primarily as a researcher . So as I shifted from being a performer on stage every night because I wanted to tell more stories that were just more exciting to me , I got so many tools . I decided to create my first one-man show in New York , which was very successful . But the success scared me because I realized I didn't have the tools that I needed to really do this .

Speaker 2 26:40

Well , so I went back to do my master's in theater making at Sarah Lawrence College and with those trainings , that's what launched me into having access to being a professor of what I'm doing , while also developing and creating work , because we're in a society now where you do need multiple sources of income to get to any level of survival and as an artist , particularly a lot of the work , a lot of things that you do primarily as a generative artist , somebody who creates work from scratch . If you're not getting funding right away off the top of your grant , you have to just create from . So what I was doing was the works were coming before my budget was ready and when you're being called an artist to create , you have to write . You have to write , you have to research . The work is just like talking to you and that time that it takes to write and develop and research for years was not paid time , it was passion time . So to supplement that , there were days I was working at a gym and there were days I was teaching . There were days where I was getting part-time gigs to do whatever was possible to build that time in between because it takes a lot A workshop .

Speaker 2 27:45

When I go to Jamaica , I remember I'm going to call his name because he was so powerful , tony Wilson . He was the brainchild and creator of the company Dance Theater in Jamaica . I did that because he just passed in the week , but he was someone when I came to New York City who said anytime I come to Jamaica , come teach class . I want you to give back to these kids . And when I'd go back in with Gimelica smiles , that wasn't much but it was like I was coming home to teach but also that was adding to how I was surviving as an artist in New York City and I don't think sometimes people understood how important it was to not just especially people who are building as artists , to not just ask them to do free things because they're going to give back anyways .

Speaker 2 28:25

We love giving back , but it's really important to compensate artists who are developing , who are trying to get to the point , because most times the developing of the thing , because it's not yet visible or known , it's not bringing in anything at all . A lot of it is passion-based and primarily because I want to see Jamaican work at a really high level . The investment to get to the really high level requires investment like real investment , and I was laughing at people saying but the Bob Marley movie come out , did not cast no jamaican . I was like , um , did you invest in the jamaicans who were trying to train and get to the level of a bob marley movie when it was time for them to come and cast jamaica ?

Speaker 1 29:08

so all right , now is the dialogue time . All right , all right , so you touched on a lot of things , so fully transparent here , because you may not know that . Um , all right , 2023 . I was like I'm done with this podcast , I'm exhausted . Then I was like you know what ? Nobody not check for , carry on friends . You know I met no money , I'm going to quit . And I literally had a plan on how I was going to . You know , wind down the show .

Speaker 1 29:42

Black Cake come out . And I was bringle because I read the book . I was bringle because I felt like the story , if you read it , inherently she created a fictional Caribbean country , but it really was based in Jamaica and I felt like when it was put on TV , they minimized the Jamaican parts once they left the country . Right , the characters left the country and I was so upset , all the interviews they did . And I remember I was at Friendsgiving with my friends and I took out my phone , started recording and all the Jamaican women were on the table . I were like what are you watching ? I said Black Cake . And I'm like you know , it's about Caribbean Jamaican . They said I lie . I didn't realize . I thought it was something else .

Speaker 1 30:34

That gave me new fire because I love watch TV . I'm like we need to talk about the creative industry for people who live here and have to work the system because it is not easy . We talked about the Bob Marley Project . I've had various people come on the show , horaine Henry . So if you go back over this past year , I've talked a lot about film media because I love watch TV . I couldn't go anywhere . German Don't pass again . Look up down the road . Can't pass again .

Speaker 1 31:13

But we are watch TV and we created a side project called Reels and Rhythms where we decided to use that to talk about first projects that are Caribbean folks , whether there's a strong character . So we would talk about like an Abbott Elementary with the Honorable Sherri Lee Ralph like champion on Netflix , which is , you know , from a lot of people out of the UK , just because our creatives they need the infrastructure , like black theater , our black movie has , where they have podcasts that just does movie reviews or they talk about that stuff . And I said we don't have anything like that . You know we don't talk about that . So everything that you're saying I resonate . I went into a pitch competition , pitching Breadfruit Media , which is under where I produce the podcast , and I couldn't get any funding . You're pitching and you're pitching and you're pitching One . The first question they ask you is where's your community support ? The first question they ask you is where's your community support ? Why should I invest in you when your community not invest in you ?

Speaker 2 32:27

That is , but it's one of the things I've learned from that . You've shared some wonderful things too . That also is insightful , because the Black Cake and the Bob Marley movie for me , I

Surviving as a Caribbean Creative

Speaker 2 32:38

saw those as every door opening is a door opening . No , I agree with you , I agree , and no one project will solve all the things . But then , and also , where is a community ?

Speaker 1 32:49

Yes .

Speaker 2 32:50

But it goes back to this is the journalist , the part of me and the things I write . I've created the empathy in myself so that I can move forward , but the understanding that colonialism was amazing .

Speaker 1 33:03

No , we talk about it all the time because , even as you said it , you know I will talk about black cake and give it credit . Because they say , if black cake never happened , I would have quit the podcast last year and reels and rhythms wouldn't happen either because of my frustration with that . So it has its purpose .

Speaker 2 33:21

But what I said , colonna , was amazing . What I'm saying is it made us not realize how valuable we are . It made us ask is the hair growing out of my head okay ? It made us ask are the rhythms of my word valid ? There were friends that I love in Jamaica , that I still love , but I understood where they were coming from .

Speaker 2 33:42

My first musical that I wrote , the Children from the Blue Mountain , which is the life of who is Jack Mandora , and why did he say me , no , choose none . I journey him from a kid who gets the power of Rosetta Stone from Cromanty to translate all stories . That's the journey of the show . And somebody lovingly look at me and say then foreign people are going to understand that , but a part of it . They didn't even see the work , they didn't even come to the theater , they didn't even listen to the work . And it was interestingly enough when a dear friend of mine , john Zendarsic , heard some of the things I was doing . Elpac was helping me , laguardia Performing Arts Center was helping me , but when Lincoln Center said , huh , we're going to give you the space in the library , the Performing Arts Library at Lincoln Center , through John Zendarsic , a program called Broadway Future Songbook Series . That was one of the first visibility where people said , oh , it's like yeah , but to that point it was already valuable . It's visibility and valuability are not the same thing . I can't talk .

Speaker 1 34:47

We're metambarine .

Speaker 2 34:49

But a part of it is we , the colonialism . Part of it says you know , I look at the Bob Marley and the Usain Bolt and the Merlin Ati and so many other people who in the space in our country , we didn't recognize how valuable they were until they stepped out Absolutely . So we have to look at that honestly and say , hey , we have to change the way because we have some amazing things happening , you know , but there has to be a wonderful correlation between diasporic things and what's happening on the island . I remember seeing an interview with Faye Ellington and Louise Bennett the late Louise Bennett , honorable Louise Bennett , and one of the things that I always said to Faye about it too . I said to her Auntie Faye , you know what troubled me about that interview , when Miss Lou said Jamaica finally gave her a first class ticket to come back and forth to Jamaica , and by that point she was in the last , maybe five or so years of her life .

Speaker 2 35:47

And I say no , miss Lou , should I get that when she in our younger part of our lives so she can go back and research and develop and create ? That's when she needed that . How much more works and volumes of work could she have created if she had access to that level of research ? So a lot of things I do now . The last two years I work as a grant panelist for New York State Creative Arts Council where I look through grants to help people get funding for things , primarily because in the last few years I had to learn how to write and create my own grants to get funding .

Speaker 2 36:17

But here's what happens my own grants to get funding , but here's what happens when there are no grants residences , development foundations that are directly for Caribbean people developing work at multiple different levels then those of us who are developing work and this is literally this is not me admonishing , I'm using this as a way of opening up the conversation to say , hey , this is how we build together , this is how we build Based on the little knowledge I know I only know this much , you only know your experience I'm going to share with you so we can grow together as a society . It's an invite into growing the economy of the creative caribbean . What happens is , if we don't have that for funding for people like us to go and like and those are in the islands to do it and cross , then we're gonna I'm gonna have to compete with the black cake and the islands to do it and cross , then I'm going to have to compete with the Black Cake and the Bob Marley movie and pitch in that forum . And I know this . One of the things that works very , very well here relationships .

Speaker 2 37:12

If they don't know my name , if they don't know a friend of mine that said look , this young kid is doing something really interesting , which is I'm grateful that's happening . Now in my career I'm getting a lot of advocates who are non-Caribbean but who go . Oh my goodness , this is just good work wherever it comes from , because my thing is I just want good work from the Caribbean . I want good stories . I want good and when I would say good , I mean layered , authentic stories that show us as layered , powerful people or epics or folklores or magic , the magic that we have to be , because the Caribbean is a very unique , interesting experiment like nowhere else .

Speaker 1 38:00

Absolutely . I mean even you coming on . This podcast is part of my journey of activation . You know , being an activist in a way of opening up the platform for the last year for the creed I've had people who've talked about . You know I've had andrew clark from brata . You know he was one of my first podcast guests . I had him back on earlier this year and other people .

Speaker 2 38:31

It was a way for me to platform you all more right and have the conversation and I'm going to pause it to say right now I appreciate that because one of the things that I find that we don't do often enough is college others' names in rooms . Yeah , we have to college other names in rooms because there is space for all of us , absolutely , because there's some . When I go home , I say home , as in Jamaica , there are people who are doing some really , really brilliant work there and they have been pushing the fight there and I'm like great , and some of them we have great conversation . I think of Rayon right now , who's doing some great things and we call each other and we just talk about how we're doing things on a different level , what the gift of the world pausing and having Zoom thing was . I was dropping into people's Zoom and hearing some other readings . They were dropping into my Zoom . There are people who are doing things . But , as a dear friend of mine , carl Williams , another brilliant playwright , actor in New York City- I've met Carl .

Speaker 1 39:30

I've met Carl . I know what Carl look like . I know Carl .

Speaker 2 39:35

Brilliant , yeah , so Family , family , family family I agree , I will make sure it happens . Family yeah , so it needs a competition . Family , family , family , family I agree , I will make sure it happens . Family , family , family . But one of the things that we talk about a lot is we don't know what to do yeah .

Speaker 2 39:47

Because there are people out there probably doing what we are saying isn't happening , and a part of it is me , saying it out loud is saying my knowledge is this big . The smart man knows he knows nothing and he only knows his experiences . The foolish man says he knows everything . I don't know everything . So everyone who's listened to this podcast come on and say , actually Jermaine , actually Kerry , because what has happened as a part of the colonial system is the separation of us knowing what the other person is happening . So I will be next to you on the same project , I get different money and I do the same job , you know . And I say , Kerry , what you get ? They give me 10,000 and you get 15 . And you say , well , I say nothing because , no , I know you are PME , but why you forget you're 15 ? But also , if 15 available , but why 15 too ? Because why not ?

Speaker 1 40:39

Yeah .

Speaker 2 40:44

Why not 15 too ? Because why not ? Yeah , why not ? We're supposed to know each other , um and and support and build because the next generation talking about the elderly now and how one of the gifts that I also have as a mentor is I had good mentorship , so I have to pass it on and I do believe the generation before give us the baton . We have to now run Our leg of the race aggressively To make sure we're passing on a healthier version , so what Miss Lou did and gifted us . We're supposed to run it forward so that it's not stuck at what Miss Lou left in her . We're not supposed to be supposed to know what it is , but we're supposed to then move it to the next level so that it's not when a young person that's coming up now has to research Jamaican folklore . They're not tapping back 60 years , they're tapping back five years . It's closer to them .

Speaker 1 41:31

Yeah , you know we have to come back and have another conversation , because there's when I tell you there's just so much , so let us wrap . And then , mia , I'll have another conversation , because there's when I tell you there's just so much , so let us wrap and then may you can elaborate after .

Speaker 1 41:46

Join us for the post show yes , yes , no . But when you think of again the clarion call for the community in supporting , because the community wants to see themselves right , they want to see themselves . How do they engage ? And here's why . So , after going through these pitch competitions and having multiple conversations over the course of the year , understanding different limitations within the system or the industry , what's the grassroots effort for the community to get involved ? How do one one cocoa drop in our baskets ?

Speaker 2 42:32

I can tell you how I've been doing it , because one thing I'm going to definitely say on this program I have a wonderful community around me and my audiences my audiences are loyal . I have like a really good following and that took years to develop what it was was . I was one creating good work period , but the first thing you have to do is to make sure the work is solid and it's authentic and it represents well . I hire my friends and people I care about that are brilliant . So one of the things that I do is I hire you in the direction that you're growing into . So you used to be a dancer , but you're going to dance no more . Why don't you want to direct ? All right , and you're working on the directing thing . I'm going to hire you as a director versus saying , but yeah , good , dancer , man , come dance .

Speaker 2 43:13

No , don't hold people to the version of themselves that they no longer want to be . Hire them in a direction that they want to grow into , because

Building Community Around Caribbean Stories

Speaker 2 43:20

one that breeds loyalty , and show that you're , because I'm also asking you to step into me being a creative director , a writer , because at one point I was a journalist and a dancer . I want you to see my expansion because I want you to also expand . Now that is a first community . The people around you , every person know two people . People hire the team of people that love and trust and respect what you're doing . They're going to bring two people and two friends . Every community that I walk into I'm going to expand that everybody is welcome to the show because most time , like the other time when I do with my work , the last show I did well , one of my last show I did the legend of the rollingalf , which looks at the man becoming a rolling calf setting on a new flat bridge .

Speaker 1 44:02

What I I cannot wait to leverage with you Anyway .

Speaker 2 44:07

Yeah , but the thing with that was , you know , the first thing I do when audience come in because it's a folkloric story about Jamaican culture you have to have white room in that space . So everybody who walks in the theater get Jamaican ting and white rum immediately I'm inviting you into a space . When you leave the show you're gonna tell somebody , say , you know , we got one nice show and they bring ting and white rum . So the way I engage the community is also very tangible and so I , you know , and I use social media a lot like my . Social media is very much my , the work that I do and I expand the community that way , um , so , over the years , and it's something that great people did , like Tyler Perry , I've taken from his learning curve that he built from building community . He spoke directly to the people that he wanted to . So my ego wasn't . I'm amazing . They need to come to me . No , nobody know who you are . Teaching gifted me that Teaching at LaGuardia Community College , which is a very Caribbean , immigrant-based community college in New York City . Those students I would very much , and when the gift of the director of the program and I also teach at HB Studio in New York City too . They would let me teach the way I teach in the classroom . So I would bring a script in that I'm working on right now and have the student use it in their exercises . I had a teacher use the Legend of the Rolling Calf script for the students to design conceptual staging for it , and so those students became audiences . They want to see what is happening . So I'm using multiple different ways of building your audience and then after at some point , they started inviting a friend .

Speaker 2 45:38

So what's kind of the last workshop I did what was really beautiful . I remember sitting down . It was the first time I did a show that I wasn't on stage with the cast or in the band playing . I decided to just once I give over the music and everything , to sit in the audience now and just watch , because I needed to also release and trust the people that I've been , I've hired to do their work . I was watching audience members who for years been coming to my show greeting each other oh my God , how you been , and they only see each other at my show and seeing them coming to the show looking forward to seeing the person that they saw the last time that was there , they started building their own community Before you know it . Oh , those two people are now friends because they met at the show .

Speaker 2 46:20

So that's how I started . I started hiring people that I trusted around me , started small , I realized I didn't have to build 5,000 seats , I just needed 10 people . The first time I did the workshop because they were giving me the most valuable asset their time . The 10 people took time in new york city tech train after work come see a reading of a new idea that's not even fully developed yet . Those people you hold on to by the time you get to broadway that's gonna sell itself . But those people . One of my friends said something powerful to me . She said mckay , I'm weird for my dress press already .

Speaker 1 46:58

You know for the opening . She have the pattern leather shoes ready ready .

Speaker 2 47:03

You want people like that in your corner , who's ready for your ascension , so that that's how I built community and audience wonderful .

Speaker 1 47:12

All right , I have one fun question before I wrap up . Um , if you were to ever create a project other than what you've already done , like what is one project from Jamaican folklore or anything that you're like you know what ? That's something I would definitely love to do .

Speaker 2 47:34

So beyond Jamaican folklore , I love folklore from the Caribbean . I'm very fascinated right now with Sukuya .

Speaker 1 47:40

Oh yes .

Speaker 2 47:42

And those who don't know Sukuya , go research the genius of her . I'm not going to say give you a detailed account , because I'm still learning how she navigates it .

Speaker 1 47:50

Yes , I have an episode of another show that I produced that talked about all of these other characters in Caribbean folklore . It's a history podcast , so she gave a little clip of it . I'll send that to you .

Speaker 2 48:03

but yeah , I love it . So I love origin stories Like how did they become this person ? And ? But then tied into something that's happening contemporarily .

Speaker 1 48:12

Yeah .

Speaker 2 48:12

So I'm thinking of something

Male Friendship and Caribbean Folklore

Speaker 2 48:14

about Sukia and how it relates to platonic male friendship , intimacy and how that can be judged in the world , because I think one of the things that men need right now is just another friend another big man friend , a brethren , and I find that in the diaspora we've kind of moved away from like having a solid friendship in our life and I feel that that is making or the way we have relationship with different people even more compounded .

Speaker 1 48:42

You know there's an interesting pattern because you know I see those relationships in the older generation specifically . So my uncles , yep , um , they are friends with my like , they're my cousins , but them when I mean so them tight , them tight , you know , like them , them just like you need it .

Speaker 2 49:03

Sometimes you need , you need advice from somebody who understands the lived experience , at least in parallel to what you could have been through , and you need that bridging you can call and like , be really vulnerable with yeah , like if you want drop up , make your water drop exactly , and I was gonna tell that story .

Speaker 1 49:22

You know like , when my cousin father died , mom could just go over there and say , oh , we're not for talk . I said nothing . You know we don't sit on our . You know like the silence in those because you know , you know , and when my grandmother passed , you know you know like , and I see how they operate , but how they maintain those relationships I don't think it's . It's done in a way now because that generation and even when I came here you moved with the community right . So it's different when somebody come and go New York and somebody go Boston or somebody go there . So they were moving where the community already existed and because they were doing that they were still able to maintain those bonds in a way , versus the way how we migrate now . It makes it difficult .

Speaker 2 50:13

Yeah , I was a nomad . I moved by myself , absolutely by myself . I moved by myself fully , yeah . Yeah , I mean , everybody moved by themselves in a . But when they got here , they found each other and said okay , yeah , that's it all right , absolutely by myself .

Speaker 1 50:18

I moved up by myself fully , yeah , yeah , I mean , everybody moved by themselves , you know . But when they got here , they found each other and said okay yeah they say you're there , all right , we'll come over this . So we'll come live over .

Speaker 1 50:26

Yeah , yeah , it wasn't my case yeah , but I I like where you're going with that , but , um , I definitely would like you to come back on because , again , we , we haven't I mean , it's almost like , oh , we're not , we're not even touch all the things I wanted to talk about , but I do appreciate you coming here . You have no idea because , um , it's just so affirming for me in terms of what my interest is , where I want to go , just hearing your experiences , um , you know , even the , the multiplicity of your interest is something that we need to tell people . Right , like you can be many things . You can explore all these different things Because they're a part of who I am . We're multidimensional .

Speaker 2 51:14

We were taught to , though , because in high school you start English and then you go to maths , and then they go to pe , then they go to geography , and , at least for me , that was training me to say you can learn multiple subjects , you can learn .

Speaker 2 51:27

you're doing spanish and you're doing integrated science , then all of it then you're doing history , social study , but so then clothing and textile yeah all of them are like we , we were taught to , to be able to use multiple different ways of problem solving things and and letting our brain expand , um , and then we end up adults doing one kind of thing all the time and it's like that kind of shrinks how you experience humanity , how your mind can dissect and comprehend , and just like how you have a fully lived experience .

Speaker 2 52:05

Because the way I experienced myself in dance classes and it's different the way I experienced myself as an actor , the way I experienced myself as a director or a professor and all of those tools made me a better listener , a better friend , a better human being . Because I'm experiencing myself in different contexts in the same germane , but how in different contexts . If you're walking as a professor , how immediately I walk in as a young black male professor and watch my student you're the teacher , but yeah , watch my student react in different ways versus when you walk into and like it . It's really interesting how the world perceives you in different ways versus when you walk into it . It's really interesting how the world perceives you in different contexts and it's important to kind of become aware of that in a healthy way .

Speaker 1 52:47

Absolutely so . Why don't you tell the people on Wedding Camp find you on the internet ?

Speaker 2 52:52

The easiest way is to go to jermainrowecom J-E-R-M-A-I-N-E-R-O-W-Ecom , and there you'd find all my social media . But for the most part , social media is still Jermaine Rowe . But JermaineRowecom will have anything upcoming shows or events , how to donate 501c3 to the projects that are being developed for Jamaican Works and also sometimes just drop an encouragement . Yesterday somebody literally came on my Facebook and said I love what you're doing , and they're actually from Puerto Rico . I love what you're doing . I think it makes me want to tap into the folklore from my culture as well . That in itself is gold . Sometimes you don't know , Because people come on the page and look at it and say , oh , that's nice . But you need people to sometimes comment and share and like the things , because that is how our world works today and we need that . In a creative industry , A reshare and a post is valuable .

Speaker 1 53:42

Absolutely , jermaine . I appreciate the work that you're doing . I'm honored that you came on the show to have this conversation with me and I am excited to now be in community with you . So again , thank you for being on the podcast and , as I've been saying for 10 years , after the end of every episode , walk good .