SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Hello everyone, welcome back to this special series brought to you by Carry On Friends in partnership with Where It's Not Magazine. And I'm excited to have Mr. Clive Williams, the publisher of Where It's Not Magazine, a publication that's been around for 22 years. And with me also Herman Hogg, the publisher of Everybody's Magazine, a publication that's been around for 48 years. And so in this conversation, I'm going to talk to these two stalwars, these legends, about their work in Caribbean-American media and where we're coming from, where we are, and their hopes for where we can go. So welcome, gentlemen. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you both.

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:43

All right. So, Mr. Williams, I'm gonna start with you. Um what is your feeling in this moment about Caribbean-American media and the media space largely?

SPEAKER_02: 0:57

It makes me want to start something. I always want to start something. It makes me question the fact why don't we have a recognizable, workable, practical Caribbean American Media Association? Why didn't anybody start? I've said to my son on a number of occasions, why don't we get an association started? And I started making the moves, and I realized, as I realize in most things, that I'm gonna end up doing all the work. And I'm sure Herman finds himself in that position. He he the idea is there, we we want to bring people together, we we see the potential. But when the rubber meets the road, it's left to us. And we are I know for me, Herman. I mean, we we've been collectively, right? We've both been publishing for 70 years. Yeah. I mean, it's something like in in today's day, that's not too long. Right. But it's it's a big chunk of our lives, too, right? And um, look, 48 years, I I don't usually take a backseat to anybody, but I'm taking a backseat to this man because I watched him work eight years. And he's a pioneer. I stand where it's at stands on his shoulders. Yeah. Right? And we need to recognize that for the sacrifices that he made, we were able to come into the marketplace. It's it's uh what am I thinking right now as to the state of the media? Uh we need to be organized. We we need young people. Uh I I think many people uh when they want to be a journalist, they think of a journalism career as being a writer and so forth. But why aren't people thinking in terms of journalism as a business? And that's this is where I think we should start thinking, right? Think of journalism as a business. Why if if I were to get the opportunity now to speak to some college graduates who are embarking on this journalism career, I'd say to them, look, why don't you look at your neighborhood, look where you live, and start a newsletter that deals with the issues and the concerns and the problems that's happening in your neck of the woods. Start your newsletter there. And that can grow into because I've, you know, I'll come to that. That can sort of push you forward in in your journalism career doing your own newsletter. Then that newsletter becomes what? A magazine or a newspaper. So you know, it there are a number of things that are really happening in my head that should be taking place in the business now. But then you you put behind that the economic situation in which we live. Yeah. And those realities have changed. And this is why Herman and I know we have to think of different ways as to how we can monetize what we have.

SPEAKER_00: 4:09

I have so many questions I want to follow up on. Why a media association? Why do you think that it could be beneficial to us in this day and age? Um yeah, let's start there.

SPEAKER_02: 4:22

You want to go first? No, you can go. Strength in numbers, power in in associations. Um when you are a cohesive group, you benefit from that by the flow of ideas, the exchange of ideas. And you also convey to the community that there is cohesiveness. People are serious about their business, that you're an organization. Then you'll be able to lobby for support. Um, you'll be able to uh make inroads in the so-called bureaucracy once you are an association.

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

Herman, when we were working together, we you know, uh in 2007, 2008, media wasn't the what it is, what it is now then, and we had to deal with changing, digitizing the the website of the magazine. And so technology is a big disruptor in this space. And so what does technology play in the future or or the state of Caribbean? I hate I don't like to say the state of Caribbean media, but what role does technology play? Because you said start a newsletter. Most people just want to use the social media platforms and not necessarily own anything. So I'm curious about from your perspective, because you've been a publisher the longest, the role technology plays in the evolution uh and the sustainable potential sustainability as of Caribbean media as a whole.

SPEAKER_01: 6:03

Well, no, technology is everything now. Everything, especially you go in into the era now of AI, artificial intelligence. But yet on the other hand, um, you like saying the human body, the human body cannot exist without flaw of blood. So writing always be a part of journalism. But on the other hand, forming an association is rather challenging. You have to be really at it, and it also will end up most of the time in the hands of the person who came up with the idea. And especially now, the media is not as dependent on each other as before. Now, in the head of the 80s, when various United States administrations, whether they were Democratic administrations or Republican administrations, when they thought that the Caribbean was on fire, the days of Manly, the days of Maurice Bishop, Justin X and Castro, and so forth, when they thought the Caribbean was going too much to the left, there was some sort of Caribbean American Journalism Association, which I knew they brought everybody together, but we knew I could have figured out who was behind it because we knew it was not us, it was somebody within the US organization, a bureaucracy that would have to bring up to get to handpick people's brain. But now, so that failed obviously because it was not created genuinely. But now in this age of, again, technology and digital and everything, we don't need each other as before, so we may not find a need for those sort of journalism organizations. Let us say the National Association of Black Journalists. Now, I am a member of the National Association of Black Journalists. As a matter of fact, I am a recipient of a National Association of Black Journalists Award when I won the award for foreign reporting as a result of the death of Bob Marley and Dr. Eric Williams. And that was in 1982. Now, the National Association of Black Journalists was created by print journalists. There was a man named Les Pain from Long Island. He was the editor with Gil Noble and so forth. Les Payne was the editor of News Day when News Day was at its heights in Long Island. Now, the person who put, if you can say the National Association of Black Journalists on the map again, you may not agree or disagree with me, was none other than President Trump. Because last year during the presidential election, when the National Association of Black Journalists invited President Trump to come to address the body, then suddenly everybody heard about the National Association of Black Journalists. And when you look at the interview, the people from the National Association of Black Journalists who interviewed the president or the former president then, well, the president now, they are all from the national news media. They did not have anyone from the print media. From the black print media. So basically, the National Association of Black Journalists is hijacked right now because it consists of the Krim, the Black Cream, if you want to say black cream, meaning the people, the black who is on CNN, maybe Fox, NBC, CBS, and so forth. So they are the principal organizers right now. So yes, there will be a need, maybe a young group in different generations, may under the guidance of Dr. Williams here, may be interested. Um we come up with an idea, but it's a rather challenging effort.

SPEAKER_00: 10:29

You said that we don't need or depend or work with each other as much as we do, but here we are carrying our friends and where it's at. Magazine, do you think that people think they don't need each other? But we in some ways we still do need some level of collaboration.

SPEAKER_01: 10:43

Well, yeah, what I really meant was that we don't, I was talking about the media houses. Okay. So years ago, to get the latest news from Trinidad of Barbados at Jamaica, you needed the advocate, the cleaner, or whatever, the guardian in Trinidad. But now, this afternoon or tomorrow morning, you could bypass all of those media and through Facebook and social media get in tune directly with the radio station or the television station back in Kingston or in Bridgetown. So this is what I really meant.

SPEAKER_00: 11:21

Okay, got it. And so your thought on okay, we may not depend on each other in that traditional sense, but how can Caribbean media still collaborate and work together to kind of form a coalition?

SPEAKER_02: 11:34

We we we're it's interesting that you say that. I'm not at liberty to call names, but we're constantly in pursuit of that kind of collaboration because we believe that collaboration is strength. Uh, you know, I I I know where Herman is coming from, and in a way he's kind of doing a devil advocacy advocacy situation. He's saying, you know, give him the situation that is at hand where we're we're not that cohesive because of the various platforms. Uh I'm saying that there needs to be a new thinking that somebody should make some of these platforms cohesive. And we're taking a step to do that. We have um we are now in talks to um get together with another platform, because each platform, as you would imagine, has its followers. And and if one could I and pretty much when you look at at American business, the American business model, what you see is a situation where there are, even though technology is there to drive much of what we do, there is a willingness of companies in their self-interest, in their own self-interest, and in in the interest of their longevity to come together. We were seeing that all over. The car companies uh over over time have done that because right now they're just three car companies. You know, what what has happened? Chrysler, Dodge, they've become still antis, right? Um so and and that's in Europe. So the fact is that there is an appetite to come together. It's to find the incentive, the motive to do that. And and I'm motivated to do that. And it's it's uh it has to be a mindset and it has to be, we have to be driven to a large extent in self-interest. If we want to survive, we've got to make sure you survive.

SPEAKER_00: 13:38

Got it.

SPEAKER_01: 13:40

Glad you you mentioned that. Again, what you're asking, unfortunately, is part of Caribbean tradition, even though it's not positive, where we are actually divided each island to itself. So politically is divided, economically, socially, and so forth. So when it comes to journalism, it's the same, is it's basically the same thing. Um yet there are ethnic groups here that uh um work together, other racial groups from nationals. For example, there is a free newspaper distributed all over New York City. Um Caribbean newspaper, and is distributed for free. They are owned by 20, they are they are part of 25 other newspapers or more, a big conglomerate. Actually, there were one time the report moderate companies that own that newspaper of which it was part of a conglomerate, right? But they they work together because it's the same ownership. They could get the big, big ads. And we we it's free for free. And we believe we have no idea that these people are not, it's not locally owned. They make a big profit every year. But on the other hand, we don't work together. I I recall, I think it may be the late 70s, early 80s, I went to Chicago. In those days, black advertising agencies were the peak. And I went to Chicago and I met with two or three of the black advertising agencies. And I came back and I met with the publisher of a Caribbean-American tabloid right here in Brooklyn. And said, Well, I just came back. This is what we should do. We should all work together and go jointly and make our case to these advertising agencies why they should advertise us. And the first thing the person said to me, the publisher said, Listen, if you get it, I may not get that, you know, I want to do my own thing because if we go together, you may get, I may not get. So, so you know, every so we are not divided, we are not united, we can work together. But as I said, I mean, there is there's a lot of, for example, there's a lot of Jewish publications, right? In New York City and around the United States. Some are very small, some are grassroots, some are very big. We don't see them. But you know what? There is a platform, they all work together for the common good. And then they get the advertisements.

SPEAKER_00: 16:32

Yeah. So between both of you, you've seen many Caribbean media companies, not just publishers, but like a lot of media come and go in the many years.

SPEAKER_02: 16:47

Oh.

SPEAKER_00: 16:50

And I mean, we're we're laughing, but it's not funny either because, and I and I guess as technology has come about, you know, many people have their own platforms via social media. But when we think about the way that right now other communities have their own channels and, you know, Caribbean media is still leasing, maybe on whatever platform, what does it take for Caribbean media to anchor itself the way other communities and other um ethnicities are have done? Because I believe that we're in a place for that. A lot of times I look at the UK and how established it is in terms of the Caribbean presence and, you know, the way that Caribbean people have begun migration here before they've really gone to the UK and we're not established or set up in the same way. So I'm curious, what does it take for us to have like maybe our own channel, our own anchored media platforms that serve the community? What does it take for that? And and the lessons of maybe media companies that have passed that we can learn from. So let's start there. Lessons that you've learned from media companies that have come and go and how this could help us solidify ourselves or a more grounded network or other media platform.

SPEAKER_02: 18:12

But you know, I I want to start at all with with an experience and a story. Uh Connecticut School of Broadcasting, I used to teach there. I went there, as a matter of fact, as part of my my experience. And um while teaching there, I discovered an interesting source of information that we would um get information as to what radio stations at the time as involved in radio, right, are on the block, what's up for sale. And I would pass this information on to my colleagues who were in the business of radio at the time. And it's interesting that uh one of the buys that escaped us was a well-known radio station that was up for sale back in the 90s. And um it was a Caribbean platform for the most part. And I took it upon myself. Uh having had the experience with being an Avtra member, I met an attorney. This is a union that used to cover people in acting and and radio and so forth. And I met a young attorney and um a young Hispanic attorney, and we we talked, and I told him that, look, uh a lot of Jamaicans, uh Trinidad and so forth, Bayans, uh own time on leash radio. But we need to get together and uh get a platform for ourselves. And he said to me, Look, if you can uh get people together, a group of people together, uh I can look at possible membership so that you you guys will have some sort of security. Instead of being on a lease platform this week and next week you're off. I says, Great. I then used my initiative, got on to the uh Broadcasters Association, New York Broadcasters Association, spoke to the then president who said, Look, if you can get together a group of your pet folks, we could get you some kind of leverage if and and get you in as members of the association. Might not be full members, might be associate membership, but that would help. I did all that. And then I put out the word that let's meet because I have good news. We are we have an opportunity now to become legitimate uh members of the media, the broadcast media in New York. We set a meeting time. One person showed up. So we go back to Herman's argument about getting together, getting some kind of cohesiveness, getting some kind of agreement as to who should lead. What that tells me, and the lesson I learned from that, is uh and and we say colloquially, it's a crab in a barrel mentality. Okay? Uh uh an expression, an adage which I I hate with a passion, because I think it's because we lack information. Simply because we lack information, it's not because we don't have the will. We lack information as to what is required of us. Now, many of the people who have gotten into the media, they uh practice as journalists, have studied journalism, but they have no sort of business background. They don't have a people background either. In other words, the the personal relationships, how to operate in that medium. And so I think it's ignorance. And uh this is why Chris, my son, and I are on a mission to just inform people. I think the more you inform people, the more they know what is required of them, that this is a process that at some point is going to lead to a memorandum of agreement, which is something we just recently done with another media association. Understanding that how we do business, we've got to do it like how other people do business, how Jewish folks do business, how white folks do business. We've got to start doing business that way instead of saying, okay, let's try a thing. So I think it's it it's getting the sophistication, right? Just getting a little bit more sophisticated instead of trying a thing is what will bring unity, a sense of purpose, and and some accomplishment. I I think Herman and I have worked hard, set a foundation, and I think from that people, just by watching maybe this conversation, people understand that look, especially in these very challenging times, some many times uh adversity is the mother of an invention. All right? And I think the adversity that we face now is going to force us to coalesce. We've got to coalesce. And people are seeing that, they're understanding it. So the time is is near. We might grow impatient, but I think that time will come when we understand, and Chris, like I said, we're doing it. We are forging a relationship now with another media company, and we're gonna make sure that that works. Other people will see it and they will begin to say, well, you know, maybe this is the way we should go. And even if even if we're not convinced, the economic situation that exists now is going to force us into partnerships.

SPEAKER_01: 24:16

I just want you to touch before you mention about the business. You see, again, Korean immigrants, uh, Korean Americans, we still still see ourselves to a certain extent as nine to five people. So in a sense, those of us who are in the media, the viewer or the listener, the reader, they don't see they don't see what we do as a business. They see uh what we do as a hobby, they figure we have another job. So they so overall they don't take ultra so seriously as they should. And again, it goes back, you know, to how we think, how we colonialism. You know, we tend to blame history, we may blame, but again, we're no longer living in a colonial times. So it's about time that we understand our face reality. But at the same time, you do have people out there, I mean, who we say, well, yeah, we know you do a magazine, but what is your real job? You know, yeah, and and let's face it, yeah, the closest ownership of Caribbean owning something was a radio station called WLIB Radio. Now, while it is true, WLIB Radio, like Carver Savings Bank, is basically the founders were African Americans and Caribbean Americans. So the chairman of the board of WLIB Radio was Dr. Dr. Benjamin Watkins when Percy Sutton was then borough president. There was Dr. Muriel Pechone, she was a physician of Malcolm X. These were Caribbean people who were owners and African-Americans who were owners of WLIB radio. So when the WLIB went Caribbean, the first thing my Caribbean folks were saying, Possibly suddenly was running for mayor, so he's using the LIB to garner votes. So then years later, LIB continued. But what happened? The Jamaicans say it's too much calypso. The Trinidadans is saying too much Jamaicans. The Grenadians are calling me at 4 a.m. in the morning to tell me I don't play no Grenadian music, even though I'm not a DJ. And in those days, we didn't even have a carry uh a Grenadian album. So it's every man for his soin points, and then everything got underway. One time I was with the Honorable Posse Sutton, who was again the Manhattan Ball president for several years, and he actually was again Malcolm X's lawyer. So he's talking about big, big man. So one Friday, he said, Herman, let us take a drive down to Brooklyn. He wanted to visit to get the views of WLIB radio. So he had his driver, and we went to a record store on Fulton Street, Charlie, my friend, Charlie Record Store, and he shook everybody's hand and he said, How is the radio station doing? And two guys said, You're talking about the Jamaican radio station. And it was so insultive and so obscene and so bad. So this is so so in 2025, here we are talking about something that should have been settled a long time ago. So, so it's another generation. Um maybe Dr. Williamson, a younger generation who may come up with some new creativity and bring everybody together, you know, um, to work to work it as a business. Because again, remember, the largest circulated Caribbean-American publication in New York City is not even owned by black, not even owned by Caribbean people. But yet every Thursday or Tuesday, whenever we run and grab it. And it's a piece of rubbish that is there, it's just used releases. But this is what we like, you know, and so forth. So I so we really have first of all have to look at it as a business. Your show, for example, we have to look at it as a business, not something you do when you come from work. And this is what people believe. So we have to change the mindset, the analogy. Absolutely. The readers, the viewer, and if we of ourselves who are trying to be producers or who are producers and publishers and editors, we have to remember it's a business. It's it's basically what it is. We pay taxes, we have to give account of everything.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

Absolutely. With the business, you've got to talk about the A-word. Advertisers. They weave. I've observed Herman, and I'm sure I've heard um I've heard stories, Mr. Williams. I've constantly heard, oh, we don't need to advertise to the Caribbean audience. Ugh.

SPEAKER_01: 29:25

We have customers.

SPEAKER_00: 29:26

Yeah, you know, Caribbean, that's that's not innovative. You know, oh, you know, whatever we advertise to the black audience, Caribbean. What are advertisers getting wrong about the community? And does the community play a role in how advertisers treat us? I don't I don't know the answer. I'm just asking because you both have a lot of experience and more conversation with advertisers. I know from my podcast, it's like, you know, I don't know what to tell you about it. But, you know, it's it's challenging. And I think there's Like you said, lack of information about who this group of people are and what they want. And, you know, so let's talk about advertisers. Who wants to start? What's the problem? What's the issue?

SPEAKER_02: 30:10

You know, again, uh, let me tell you how I go about it. When I started WearTack, I was told first of all that that's gonna fail. Yeah. Right? I remember a dear friend of mine and and a brother in uh in a fraternity. Uh he looked at me and he says, Um, you're a black man, right? He's part Asian, right? And um you wanna start a magazine in New York City, right? Yes. He says, Do you realize that this is the biggest media market in the world? So why would you wanna do that? Okay. Uh now uh for me, and this is personal, I took that personally. And I decided that, okay, that made up my mind. This is something that I've got to do because it means that somebody and he was very successful, very successful restaurateur. And um for him to say that but when he came into the business that he was in, he wasn't the only guy. Uh the restaurant business is one of the biggest businesses in any city that you go to. And he went in head first and he succeeded. I says, Okay, I'm gonna do what you did. So unbeknownst to him, I looked at his model as motivation for my model. And I started, and we drove that model forward. Now the point I'm making, I went from door to door, and I mean from business to business. I went to hairdressers, I went to barbers, I didn't know. Um, but I knew. And I spoke to them, introduced the magazine to them. I even went further. Uh and and we we might talk about this i in in in a further conversation. But one of the things I made sure to do is to approach some of the people who had businesses that were doing reasonably well in the community. I says, Look, um do you want to advertise with us? Well, I've been getting along okay without advertising. You do realize, of course, that it gives you a presence in a community, it gives you a name, enhances your your your your look in the community. Um word of mouth. I says, but guess what? There are competitors who are coming in taking a little bit from you every week, every month, and that adds up to something. I didn't convince, and these were colleagues of mine. I didn't convince them, so I says, Here's what give me your ad. And I did better than that. I designed the ads for them, and I put it in where it's at. And I says, I'm gonna run it free for the next few months. If you get response, I'm sure you'll continue. And that was how I initially, and by the way, we are not selling where it's at, we are giving it to the community for free. So when people people thought that I was rich. And this is the mentality. People thought that how can you be giving away this paper? And uh but I said to and explained to them the truth, I says, Look, this is leveraged by uh Mr. Hall down the road, whose business you support, and he's supporting you back so that you can get this magazine for free. And so it was by hard work going literally from business to business, we call that cold calling in this in the business of direct selling, right? And from cold calling and from giving away ads, I started building a little franchise, and people developed a trust. And after that trust was developed, that bond, we became uh a credible uh publication, people started giving us more support. Now, does any young person, does this generation, have the appetite for that? Okay. So this but this this is the challenge that that that we face.

SPEAKER_01: 34:45

Yeah, but yeah, well, yeah, locally, uh what you are seeing, and advertisers, especially on the local level, they have to begin to have a certain amount of confidence. But what we don't also look at is the Caribbean of itself. Caribbean in the Caribbean, I'm talking about the businesses. They talk about how important is the Caribbean American community or the Canadian American Caribbean community is good. The the money they sent home and so forth, fine. But these Caribbean manufacturers, they assume they the Caribbean American, they take the Caribbean American consumer for granted. Absolutely. So you have the biscuits from some islands, the beverages from other islands, consumer products they ship here. And you go to them and you say, well, once a year, once a year we are doing, let us say, an issue on travel. Would you advertise? And the answer will be no, because they figure you have a ready-made. So I'm telling you, there are certain products from the Caribbean I no longer buy in the supermarket. Because why am I buying you if you're taking me for granted? And I know if they were to advertise in local media, the the market share will increase. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 36:16

It's and it's not just manufacturers. I'll go there. Some of these tourist boards.

SPEAKER_02: 36:21

When is Rather?

SPEAKER_00: 36:23

They will not advertise with a Caribbean American creator or publisher. They will go outside the community.

SPEAKER_02: 36:30

Outside the community.

SPEAKER_00: 36:32

Where I can tell you when I'm at work and my friends are saying I want to go to Jamaica, they're not going to the tourist board to find out where to go. They're asking me. Absolutely. They're looking at my pictures, my engagement. And so I I understand that feel like you take for granted, no, I could spend my money anywhere. And people say, Oh, you're not supporting your own, but my own is not supporting me either. And I think we have to do a better job of understanding that it's a cross-pollination. We are pollinating our coworkers, our colleagues, our neighbors with our culture, and that then generates interest in the region. The region has to put back into the community in a sustainable way. Because guess what? The way how technology and everything is going, the brands, the people, the all the things that you think is unique to your country, they can make that right here.

SPEAKER_02: 37:25

Absolutely. And and so and the movies are foot to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

Absolutely. And that's what I'm saying. Because I know that's what's happening. Um, Herman, we've, you know, working with you in the magazine, we've seen how, you know, some advertisers have stayed with you, they've their budget has shrunk, but they're still there. And so, how do we reach a new audience? Uh, or not audience, advertisers, given how geographically spread the Caribbean market is, and and no one knows who's Caribbean anymore, you know. So that's the other thing. But people love Caribbean culture, so that's the other thing.

SPEAKER_01: 38:04

No, that's is right, it's again, it's challenging. Again, it's a new world, you have to come with new creativity. This is why maybe a different generation will come up with ideas. But again, going back to the tourist boards and the hospitality industry in the Caribbean, they're still denying it, but still in most Caribbean islands, a tourist a tourist is still seen as a Caucasian or white person. They may deny it. And then they still have this feeling that when the nationals returning home, they don't say hotels. They say in people, which is not true. Which is absolutely not true. And then when the Caribbean national, well, let us say they send somebody home. They still giving the person money, the same money they would have spent in the hotel, and that person is still spending the money in the ROM shop, in the little restaurant, and everything. So, but it's it's it's a challenge and few people have paid the penalty. I have paid the penalty for that over the years because I have gone through, you know, I've confronted prime ministers over that over the years when I was young and aggressive. And they they always tell you that there is very little they could do about it. Because guess what? You know why is there very little they could do about it? They depend on consultants, marketing gurus, consultants who have no idea where the Caribbean is, but they are the advertising agencies, they are the public relations people and everything. You know, um every Christmas from a particular island, that island send me the public relations company from that particular island. They have a big Christmas party right here in London, and they have one in New York, and they have one in Toronto. And you know, the media they invite to the to the Christmas party is the white media. But they don't invite the African American or the black media, but at the same time, now they are sending everybody's Caribbean magazine the pictures of those splendid Christmas parties to put into publish. Oh, yeah. I could sit here and tell you tales and tales and things, which obviously wouldn't be relevant.

SPEAKER_00: 40:27

All right, so as we wrap up this conversation, what is the advice that you have, both of you have? You have for me, you've seen where I've come from, you have for you know your son Chris. Um, I can't even say we're the next generation because we're kind of in between as a generation behind us. But what's the advice for us in terms of continuing the work?

SPEAKER_01: 40:48

I'm simple as that. Continue on your work, just continue what you're doing. I mean, there'll be a lot of adversity, but eventually it will be a fruit somewhere along the line. Because I am speaking from an older generation. I'm speaking from a print media. And as I said, I have cut down my promotion when the days I used to honor prime ministers, you name Eugenia Charles Tomadam, so Arthur Lewis. Various, I used to bring out those days finishes a different generation now. So what you have to do is to continue what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02: 41:25

The tremendous opportunity that is for your generation, still young, uh, is to utilize all the resources you now have. We we when we started, we didn't have those resources. Uh I'm fortunate in that I have a son who has an interest in what we do, a vested interest. And because of that, we have been able to utilize some resources. What we're gonna have to do is maximize using these resources. And as much as my generation uh would think, our generation would think of uh artificial intelligence uh as um uh you know something that we should be afraid of. I'm converted. Uh, you know, Chris, my son, has converted me that look, this is to our advantage. So we we're gonna utilize artificial intelligence to the very max to ensure that it guides us to the other platforms that will have us uh integrate all that we need to integrate to make this uh more efficient. We've gotta find a way. And and as much as people are saying uh they're on Facebook, they're on this platform, they're absolutely doing nothing with those platforms. They're doing nothing. So it is how to capture these platforms and utilize them. And I think AI is the way to to help us to find a way to tap in and coordinate these various platforms. And I think that's an idea that we should definitely explore. How can AI help us to integrate all these different platforms to work to our advantage?

SPEAKER_00: 43:14

All right, so let's end on a hopeful note. What is your hope for the future when it comes to Caribbean media, the Caribbean commun Caribbean American community? What is your hope? I'll start with you, Herman.

SPEAKER_01: 43:26

Well, I'm very optimistic and positive. Um the creativity is not going to come from my generation. My generation is a fading generation. I mean, simple as that. Um, but I have a lot of confidence in the young people, the people who are in high schools, the people who are in college. Um, they see a different world. There's a lot of new technology, AI, as we know, and so forth. So I'm very positive. And then the only thing I'm worried about is that the more we have information, the more we generate misinformation. Because what worries me a lot is that news now is 60 seconds or less. So, and news, then you make excuses if the uh the news is wrong. And then now you have world leaders, world world leaders who believe that spreading misinformation is acceptable. So that worries me. The technology doesn't worry me for the future. What worries me about that same technology, people abusing it and justifying it, that yes, we know you are telling a lie, but it's now acceptable. Or we know you are misleading this country, or you are misleading this advertiser, and it is now acceptable. So every day, listening to the leaders of the world, you know, you you get a lot of this misinformation, which is becoming the norm. And no one is um objecting to say it's not the norm, but everybody is accepting it.

SPEAKER_00: 45:11

Yeah. We've been desensitized to it.

SPEAKER_02: 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:14

Your hope?

SPEAKER_02: 45:17

I'm hopeful. Uh I'm hopeful because the the again, the technology is there to support what we do. What I'm concerned about is the willingness of of our younger generation to to harness and to grab the opportunity. And, you know, for those reasons, I've I've founded a a non-profit group called Black Priorities. Right? I think very often when I was doing the research for this paper that I'm doing, I Googled Jewish priorities. I Googled other priorities, ethnic groups. And do you know that for the most part, eighty percent of other uh recognizable groups have a set of priorities? I couldn't find a set of priorities for black America. What I found was the traditional established organization, the NAACP. The the organizations, but none saying what are our priorities going forward. We have been fighting for the same battle for the same number for scores of years. We've been fighting the same battle, no change. With some results, yes. But could we get faster results if we set our priorities? And and I think whoever sort of drives this, reordering, rethinking our priorities, is who is going to influence the outcome of and I'm concerned about our outcomes as as people of color. That's what I'm concerned about right now. And I think if we reorder our priorities, so instead of thinking uh the nine to five, as you mentioned early on, that mentality, why aren't we thinking seeing ourselves as owners? Right. Why aren't we seeing every opportunity that we get as an opportunity to be an entrepreneur, to make some money from it, to make a difference with it. And I think if we can somehow uh infuse that kind of thinking in people and begin to share that, I think once we realize that the only way we can be recognized and respected, get the equity and the equality and all the good things that we want is when we're able to make our own living. Black Wall Street comes to mind, right? Oklahoma, okay? Those people had to find a way. Necessity again, being the mother of invention. I think when our backs are against the wall, like it is now, people are complaining that it's a bad time. Yes, a bad time politically for a lot of people, but it's putting our backs against the wall. I think we when we come out fighting, right, right after Jim Crow, when it was one of the worst times in our history, there was the Harlem Renaissance. And from the Harlem Renaissance, it started a conversation. And that conversation has driven us to where we are today. That Herman is an owner, I'm an owner, and my son is an owner. And I think I think the future holds, you know, promise for us.

SPEAKER_00: 48:46

Wonderful. Well, thank you for joining us for this series with Mr. Clive Williams, publisher of Where It's At Magazine, and Herman Hall, publisher of Everybody's Magazine. I do hope you enjoyed the series and that you've learned a lot from these gentlemen. And this is, again, the beginning of your journey of learning more about our community and being a part of it. Get active the way that these gentlemen have said. And we also have to continue to make sure that our future is still in place and not just be consumers, but how are we going to be producers of our culture? All right. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 49:23

Thank you. Thank you.