Why This Is Part One

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Just a quick note before we get started, this conversation with Dr. Carrie Ann Peart was so rich that I divided it into two parts. And this is part one, where we talk about professional well-being, emotional awareness, and the ways our cultural background shapes how we show up in the workplace. Enjoy. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Carry On Friends, the Caribbean American Experience. And I am excited because again, I have someone who I share a name with on the podcast today. Dr. Kerry, welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm well, I'm well. Nice to see you and nice to meet you. Nice to see you and meet you as well. And so, why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit about who you are, Caribbean country you represent, even though I feel like they might know because we have that distinction of beer carry and carry-ands in this particular country, and about the work you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Absolutely. Yes. So I come from Yad, straight from Yad, uh, otherwise known as Jamaica, jam down the rock, all those things. Um, and the work that I do, Lord, it's expanded um quite a bit and also reached quite a depth. That's interesting. So I do work in the space of professional well-being, really and truly. That's what it whittles down to be. Being a professional in your whole professional identity and also being well as you do that. And under the umbrella of organizations and system psychology, which is the academic side of things, is what I focus on. So bringing the efforts of cultural intelligence and emotional intelligence into the sphere of professional well-being and looking critically at how our cultural identities show up at work and how we can still be authentic and well in those particular forms of identity. Dr.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Kerry, you're saying all the things that you know, I don't know if you know the backstory, Michael, tell in a little bit. You know, we are Jamaica and we love tell story.

Carrie Ann’s Career Crossroads

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Tell story, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Um, what you're saying resonates so well in something that I recently developed Caribbean Diaspora Experience Model and Lens Five, culture impacts how we show up at work. And I came to this because of the reason why I started the blog and eventually the podcast, was because I was experiencing some things at work. Um, so I guess let's let let me be the patient, the 2012 version, right? So I was at work, and up until that point, you know, as we say at Jamaica, me asculati. I do my job, my good punits, and do the people that work and get promoted, get in poached from one firm to the other and right. Right. And I found myself at a place where I started to say I've worked over at that time, almost 15 years in this industry. What's next for me? Because I didn't want to become a lawyer, right? Um I've lived a lifestyle enough where, you know, I worked hard, you know. I didn't do it as a bragging right, but I worked in litigation and I've, you know, I've told people there were days that people left work and came back to work, and I still had on the outfit I had the day before, because, you know, unlike other jobs, it's legal. So there's a deadline, but the courts dictate and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

And I needed um mentorship and guidance, and but I I felt so misunderstood. I don't want to say it's the first time, but I felt very misunderstood, and I felt like no one understood what exactly I needed. Like some people might wanted to approach it. I'm like, it's not that. And then what really bubbled me, I had an office and I would sit at my desk and people would pass by my office, but I'm Jamaican with focus power with focus in the computer to do the work, and you know, uh I'm locked in. And people would walk by my office without me realizing they walk by my office trying to peep in and get my attention. And so I'm going to use old people talk. Hold them come so. If you want to say hi, just say hi now.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Right.

Culture Clash And “Niceness” At Work

Mentorship, Misunderstood Needs

SPEAKER_01 4:32

You expect me to read your mind that you're passing by my office back and forth, that you want to get my attention. Yeah, and because of that, I became mean. I was like, I'm not mean, I don't see you. Say hello. And you know, this idea of being overly social, and I personally felt like it was at the time where the generations at work were changing. I'm a gen expert and I came up in, I spent most of my time in the industry where the generation was older, so they didn't really care to go out and do the whole social ting and hang out. So there was a newer generation, and they wanted certain social, they they they ranked social value much higher than just get this work done and do a good job. Yes. And then Mago said, this same young people, insight insubordination, and you know, said as a Jamaican, like what I disrespect your child, disrespect. So all of these things were happening, and I couldn't understand why the other people couldn't understand, like, this is wrong. You are encouraging my staff to be insubordinate, not because what I'm saying is wrong, but because you don't think I'm social enough or nice. And I'm like, what does that have to do with me executing on this job? So, all right, Dr. Kerry, Mr. All right, you know, me a Jamaica and myself regulate, you know, I'm the oldest, so I'm just all right, go do what we do. I went through their process, right? And they determined that oh, they don't need my services anymore. But joke was on them within a year or two of me leaving. One of the persons who would have been under me, they elevate them into my role. Of course, you know, you're not listening to tell you what happened. Then Karen do what me did have to do. Yep, yeah, they couldn't do it, and then they started hiring for my role again, and recruiters are reaching out, and I was like, I'm not interested, and I wouldn't encourage anybody to do that job because you will not be supported, and these rogue people are gonna want someone who's nice, and I'm like, my job is to make sure that we are in compliance with what the court says. I don't care if you think I'm nice, of course. I was young and foolish, and I've learned that my FIFA rules don't work with NFL rules because America is NFL. I'm gonna come from Jamaica and football or football, but it's soccer over here, so I had to adjust. And so I took that in between finding a new job to adjust, watch some video, I'm gonna say, All right, say less, I'm ready for the next job. But I I I gave you a very condensed version because at the time I didn't realize how much it was culture that was causing me to feel like it. And this idea of finding a mentor, and I'm like, you know, I asked them in my Jamaican way, you know, but they're they're like no, and I'm like, they didn't say no, but I pick up what and it was just very difficult. And I started carry on friends, mostly talking about work because I was dealing with this. I'm like, I can't be alone and deal with this, right? You know, yeah, like, and then I found out on the platform formerly known as Twitter that people used to complain about corporate playdates and how they disliked it with a passion. Yes, and so that's some of the backstory, and I think the other story or experience I had was I hired um part-time employees from the local um college that's in New York City, and I remember interviewing one young man, you know, interview questions, you know, what's your weakness? And the young man say, accent. Now I kept my interview composure. I told him thank you, blah blah blah. And at the end, I said, I look here. Don't say your accent is our weakness again, you hear? But I could also understand why he said that, and so I told you all of that to come to the point where this idea of professional well-being, I am glad it's here, it's a donkey years for each year, but my glad so we reach either way, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, and particular particularly for people of Caribbean heritage, because I think what what gets lost in social is that there's a better than, and I'm not saying that there are pockets of the community that might you know perpetrate the better than, but I I think that at the heart or the crux of it is something very cultural that we all experience, and it's not something that we can easily turn off, even when we're aware of it. Like I'm aware of certain things, and sometimes it's it's almost like it's a default mode where it's nature and nurture that's happening at the same time. So machat whole Dr.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Kerry, yes, no, but that's that's good context. So um context is important to me, right? I I work based on the context of things, and you know, one thing that you mentioned about professional well-being, taking donkeys' years to be here. You know, it's funny that you say it in that way based on the context you're coming from. Professional well-being isn't new, um, it's just it's never been equitable. Let's put it that way, right? It's it's been around because we talk about having discounts to gym membership. We we we talk about the EAP plans where you can get a nutritionist and you can do these, you know, team walking events and all this kind of stuff. So well-being at work isn't new. What I'm talking about, and what you're talking about, is the well-being as a professional based on our nuances rooted in our cultural identity, right? What is good for me as a Caribbean woman, Jamaican woman, is very different than what is good for a fellow Caribbean woman who is trade. Right? There are these nuances that are very subtle but are very valuable to us, and they really impact how we do what we do at work and elsewhere. So it's interesting to hear you say it that way because it it it does. It does feel like it's been long and coming, even though the corporate spaces and in general workspaces would be like, but we've always had well-being at work. Nah, not really.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

No, and and it's it's really from this very specific Caribbean lens, because at to your point, corporate in America isn't corporate in the UK, it's not corporate in Canada, it's very different.

Authenticity Versus Corporate Rulebooks

Global Corporate Nuance And Context

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, corporate everywhere is different, it's like a fraternity, you know, when you get hazed going into fraternities or sororities, there is a corporate fraternity. And even though they're all like, you know, a fraternity that comes to my mind right now is like the alpha fraternity. I was friends with a lot of alphas in college. And I can tell you that the alphas at Emory University where I went to school are different than the alphas that went to Georgia State or went to GA, right? Um, because of just nuances in their context. So similarly, as you're saying, you know, the corporate um fraternities nuanced UK to Canada to um the US to Latin America, etc. etc. Uh well what is important, dare I say, what is important, is for corporate entities to come to a point of recognition for the people that make them operate. Without people, corporations don't exist, right? So at a fundamental level, we put just putting it flippantly, yes, people are corporations, and with that in mind, if people are not well, then our companies are not well and they don't execute at the level of rigor or quality and sustainability that we want. So that's the macro of it, right? So I just want to make sure that I touch on the macro because the majority of us are very much operating day to day on just paying attention to how we contribute to the macro. And this is where the work I do comes in. If you consistently pay attention to the work that you contribute to the macro, then who's paying attention to your micros? To you, as you know, Carrie Ann from Jamaica, who went to such and such a school, who had this kind of family structure, who had this kind of ethical standing and morals and values and that kind of stuff, that's then contributing to her day-to-day process at work and the team she leads and the people she engages. Who's paying attention to that if not you? And that's what's happening to a lot of us in the workspace is that we migrate to these communities, and I'll talk about what's going on in the region because I still I still work in the region too. So let me just talk about what's going on across our diaspora. So we migrate into these UK, Canada, USA, corporate spaces and elsewhere, and we adopt right, what we're told to adopt. We're told that in order to get by in these spaces, you have to wear this, talk like this, act like this, etc. etc. And somewhat water down or mute your cultural nuances, right? Um, so you can't chat your blade on patois work, like that can't happen. Even if it's you and all a bunch of friends in there or Jamaican, that is reserved to lunchtime, happy hour kind of thing when you're in a corner. You can't do this in the office, right? You can't do that. Um, you can't wear your bright colors, like forget that. X that out, right? Because then you're attracting too much attention to yourself as a Caribbean person at work. Um, be very careful how you wear your hair, right? The knotty network, some of the braids them can't work, all this kind of thing, too much curly hair network, like all these things start coming into play. So we start adopting stuff that really isn't good for us, right? The straightening of the hair, wearing of kind of these dull-looking clothes that we all feel good in. And you know how we are as Caribbean people. If we don't feel good, we're not the good, right? We like to breeze out and free up with self and that kind of thing. And if it can't work at work, then we're not feeling our best, right? If we can't hold a vibe at work, we're just not feeling our best. So there are a lot of layers to it, absolutely, but there is a way to be a professional and authentic as a Caribbean person that works, it actually can happen, right? Um, without you having to come across as you were saying earlier, mean and overstepping corporate boundaries and things of that nature. And I had to learn that in a very roundabout way after I too got fed up in the spaces I had to navigate. So um, yeah, you touched on quite a bit. We're not in the same arena, but I feel like we've had the same experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, and it's mostly the same experience. But I also want to add for context, the things that you said make sense. It depends again, we add more nuance to this. It depends on your industry. Because if you're in New York City, chances are a one bag of West Indians work at a hospital and then can get to it pretty much because they have a coalition, it's a large number of them. So hospitals just have to adjust to them. I mean, again, it based on is the hospital in Manhattan or is it in Brooklyn? You know? So again, this, you know, all the things that you're saying, we also, and I think for the rest of the conversation, I want the audience to think of it matters industry, it matters geographic location, the different nuances. What is tolerated in Brooklyn may not be tolerated in another city and another state. And those are the things that we have to be aware of. Yeah, um, so Dr. Kerry, there's so many. Let me tell us I have a very long list of things here. You know what I'm saying? You know, like I've been waiting to have this conversation in a in a way, like I don't even know which way to go. All right. So um, so let's let's start with something that you answer. You said um the question that we would be answering hypothetically is what are Caribbean women um and many women of color forgetting as they navigate their professional identity? So let's start there. Forgetting implies that me did know.

Hold Your Integrity Without Isolation

SPEAKER_00 17:56

So what you say, I was about to ask you if you're getting from a basis of I I knew it, and I or forgetting as if, like, you know, oh, this is a general piece of knowledge that I yeah, like attention in a class, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yes, yes, I mean it's called school lady, but anyway, oh yes, so but but what do you mean by this?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Yeah, um, so forgetting. So my forgetting, and I'll speak from my perspective on what I forgot. I forgot that I was a whole individual, right? Um, stepping into my professional identity in the US, my contexts were the US, Washington, DC, and um then Florida. Well, Atlanta first for for college, so there was some professional experience there, but then but the bulk of my professional career in the US was in Washington, DC, and then tail end of it in Florida. So very interesting. All three cities and states are very, very different. So ultimately I forgot I was whole, and I say that because the adopting of certain behaviors or ways of thinking happened very easily because I was told, hey, in order to maneuver in these spaces, you're supposed to do this, this, and this. And I didn't question right what I was being told. Hence, this is why I'm saying I forgot I already was a whole person. So taking on these things, thinking that, all right, if I do this, then I will certainly, you know, just fit in. And I hate that phrase fitting in. Um and I use the word hate intentionally because that's how seriously dislike the phrase fitting in. So I did that. I did the taking on the rule book, the so-called professional rule book of that corporate of the corporate spaces I navigated in DC, Atlanta, and Florida. I put aside the kind of morals and standards. Because you know, we have some very high standards in the Caribbean for for you know self-esteem and self-confidence and them things. So I put those things aside. Unfortunately, I think if I had maintained them from jump, I wouldn't have gone through the three cycles of burnout that I had gone through so far in my career.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

But also, I don't think even if you didn't maintain it, me think lick microaggression and licker coming. Don't talk about that. Chip away.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

They're not micro, they're just aggressions. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I was being nice. But stay to be nice. I was being nice because me that try not make it bubble up, you know.

Friends At Work Or Future Risk

SPEAKER_00 21:13

What's frustrating about the so-called microaggressions, right, is that the people who do them are totally oblivious to the fact that this is what this thing is. It's an aggression. You are being out of order, as we would say, right? Um and they actually don't know any better because of the conditioning that they have gone through and their broadopsy, let's put it that way. We come into these spaces, and like I say, you put on what you put on, you know. I can say, All right, cool, let me check out this people these people rule book and play this their game. And then when you realize that by the time you turn around a year, two years another job, you're done the rule book and you're beating the people at their own game. And that's when you start getting the Lord, you're meany, Lord, you're so aggressive y. Look here, your playbook wasn't sufficient, right? So now I'm pulling back on what I know how to do, which is to focus, get this this shit done, right? And at a high quality because I come from quality. You understand? So that is what happens. You play the game, you end up beating them at their own game, and then they gaslight you because they can't figure out how that happened. And in less than you know, a year or two years type of thing. So don't forget who you are. This is so going back to that, right? Don't forget who you are. Hold on to it because your standards, your qualities, your integrity will always win out, even when they won't label you the aggressive one. Lord, she's so ambitious. Lord, she's tenaciously. Oh, she speaks so well. All the aggressions, they're not micro, they're aggressions. Um, so that's my big major one, right? When we talk about what do we forget as women of color, as Caribbean women in the spaces we navigate, we forget that we stand on integrity and that we are built with quality.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

But also, the reality is the emotional side of that. It's a lonely place to be this person who does this, and everyone almost shuns you, are just yeah, um, just two pleasantries if some people do that at work. You know, you know, we say good morning, and some people just walk in, walk past it. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very lonely place because that's not sustainable, right? And so, you know, you find yourself trying to fit in because as social beings, you know that okay, I need to interact with some colleagues. So, you know, while we know this intellectually, it's like a dissonance, right? You know this intellectually, like, yo, I'm gonna come after work, I'm gonna do work because you know I work to get done properly. But in doing it and the level of excellence that you do for yourself, and we're gonna get to this level of excellence because there's an exception. Um, you you can find yourself not having colleagues at work, and the other side of that is you don't have support or people to to to what do you call it, advocate for you.

Burnout, Boreout, Or Perimenopause

SPEAKER_00 24:24

To be abacative, yeah. So listen, when they say stand on your integrity and root into your authenticity, right? Like I have a whole coaching container that I call island rooted, where I go into this whole thing of going back to your roots, particularly for us as Caribbean women. Um, and I also certainly serve women of color as well because we're talking about an African experience at the core, like the roots from which we come from, right? And those things, again, integrity, dignity, authenticity, quality, that's us. I am not saying ton up the thing, Satilina Hanna Body of Work for lean back on, right? No, because in integrity, in dignity, we also know how to communicate and build rapport. We come from community, we are a communal people, right? We also, as we know, you know very well, Carrie Ann in Jamaica, when things not take we spirit, we left it out. You understand?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

So when people we don't come again because I don't that's the other thing people don't understand, right? Yes, when the spirit don't take you, everybody does things differently. Some people speak, me going around like a cocoon and get very quiet, and we just walk wide because you cannot explain to anybody what is this you you can't explain it, it's just a feeling, and they're like, Well, what do you mean it's a feeling? Did they say something?

Practical Ways To Tell Them Apart

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I mean, I said the spirit tell me, yeah, let's help, right? And these are things we need to pay attention to because, again, like I do with my coaching clients, this overextension thing that we do because we want to be nice, we want to fit in when you know your spirit is telling you these people are not going to even understand or value or appreciate your attempts at being nice or communal or whatever the case may be. So, yes, some in some cases you have to walk real wide, and in other cases you exercise discernment and you know, say, all right, this person I can rock with them to a point and still just get the work done now, now stick a pin here so because I know some people are going to be like, but no, but there are friends at work, there are people at work that I'm friends with, my work wife and my work. I wanna leave that out here. I wanna leave, leave that out, please. There is a serious kind of change in the workspace that I have witnessed and I have had to certainly come to terms within certain spaces where being friends with certain people at work, depending on your work environment and you know what it is you're doing at work, can become detrimental to you. Right? People divulge this whole thing about being friends at work. You're gonna work and you're gonna share one whole bag of things with this person, and I have seen it go left. The person then uses your information against you, throws you under the bus, and then you vex, and then a whole lot of side of you come out at work. So you can be cordial, absolutely, right? Some cases you have to walk wide, absolutely, and in other cases I say, please be careful the friendship levels and how you are disclosing certain things at work. I certainly have great friendships I've developed with people from work, um, but there's an understanding that when we're at work, it's a one-level thing. Like we're cool like this, but we're no longer so so so so so so so so so so certain things at work, right? Because it's just not the space. And I know that for some of us we want to fit in quicker, and so it'll say, all right, let me let me make friends at work and friends at work and talk about this and talk about that. It sometimes does not work in many cases, it does not work in your favor. So I just want to touch on that as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

All right, boy, may I tell you me? So, all right, they I've recently again I am very introspective, retrospective, all of these things, yeah. So I'm gonna do all the things, right? That we need to do for make sure you know, you understand, which is right, it's the it's the level of hexellen that we're growing, right? And so I recently came across this idea of bore out, frightening me. I'm like, what is and um so it it describes it's the it says it's the opposite of burnout, and it's a state of um feeling like you're under stimulated, underused, and I want to I don't want to say lack of meaningful word work, right? Yeah, but it says common signs are restlessness at work, feeling not intellectually challenged, you're irritable, you know, quiet frustration, all of these things, right? Yeah, yes, and typically people who bore out then are lazy, then they they're high function, them them them a hard worker, them just feel say, yo, this are work easy, stop sops, you know what I mean. This this are this or whatever, right? And we understand that they you know for for a lot of us based on where we are in life, the economy, you might find yourself in a role where you are the the role is smaller, not in demeaning, but the container of the role is small and it cannot fit you, yeah. And so me the wonder as a Caribbean woman, yeah. If if we really have bored out, or if we just have tired body and just know for work hard, and when work slow down, we just say we're boring. I it bored. Like, me to try to understand, because these are the things I'm interrogating about myself, right? Like you're you're so much of excellence, and like we're executing on the highest level that when we we're not executing at that level, bore out sets in, right? And this is where this conversation about cultural nuance comes in, right? Is it really bore out? Or we're not we we always our neutral is work hard. Anything below that is like something is wrong. This job is not the job that should be jobbing. So let's let's talk about that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, man, yeah, man. So I will um I'll pull this straight from the coaching work I do. Um, there are three topics burnout, bore out, and perimenopause. Okay, and we have you know badge of honor to be burnt out. It's like, oh my god, I've worked to the point of burnout, and that means I have done such wonderful work. I'm so good at what I do, I'm always going, going, going. Burnout. Yay, badge. I don't know where we get the badge from, but enough of we're going on like so. We have some badge walking around with, right? The bore out is um absolutely coming up in conversations more often now than not because yes, we are finding out that we're outgrowing our roles in a lot less time than we had anticipated. Why is that happening? Well, if we look statistically at the educational levels of Caribbean people and people of color in these spaces, we are the ones with the multiple degrees. We have enough certificates. Enough, enough, enough, right? So when we get into these workspaces, it's kind of like, all right, cool. By year two, you're wondering what's next. When they told you that, you know, the next person beside you said, Oh, well, it took me five years to get to you. Look for them like five years doing what? What five years I take you? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, right? So, yes, we are we're outgrowing many of our of our positions, but we stay in them because we feel say we're not really ready yet for the promotion, or we really don't want to take up the time now for go find one new job, right? And all of that, and the money good said we type of thing, all the excuses. And so we can stay there and continue just feeling kind of like, Lord, it, you know, like you said, sops work, it we can do it in my sleep, but I am bored, right? The underlying marker now that many of us, particularly as I'm working more and more with my Caribbean woman, we are not recognizing our perimenopause signs and symptoms. And I find it absolutely fascinating. And I must have said to myself, I must be because of the mother I did have. My mother told me everything. So, you know, certain things happen, and I'm like, oh, this is what mommy was talking about. Oh, this must be it. Oh, this is what's happening now. Okay, got it. Right? And really quickly, when it comes to perimenopause, it happens during the years at which we as women are in our prime professional experiences, right? Average age of like 34, 35, all the way up to 55. So we're looking at a 20-year bracket of where perimenopause. I haven't said menopause, I said perimenopause, meaning the the events prior to the precursor to the pause. Full pause. Full pause. Thank you. Um, so it's a 20-year window, right? Uh at least a 20-year window. Some women start perimenopause as soon as they turn 30 and may end up in menopause officially by 60. So that's a 30-year window. So it varies woman to woman. But here is what is frustrating the signs and symptoms of perimenopause are very similar to that of bore out and burnout. So you will kind of be there dabbling, like, all right, am I burnt out because yeah, I'm tired and kind of feeling the depression. That's kind of signs and symptoms, too, of some women who go through perimenopause. So it's burnouts or perimenopause or midday, right? Oh, but hold on, in this job for how long now, and I feel kind of bored. So wait, which where am I? Right? And figuring out where you are is relatively easy working with your physician, tracking some of the signs and symptoms over about a three-month period. I ultimately recommend a three-month window for us to kind of document how we're feeling, what we're going through, and certain shifts in our thinking and shifts in our physical processes as well. So you said the bore out, yes, it's real. It is that, you know, you kind of reach a ceiling in your role. Uh, you don't know where really where else to go. Because sop stops work and so I could keep on doing it. The burnout is where you have pushed beyond, right, a capacity point and you keep going, right? Because you tell yourself, if me not do it, who else are gonna do it? Well, if you drop down today, somebody else is getting your job. So, you know, you need to reconcile that. And then the perimenopause, working with like getting your blood work done and monitoring the signs and symptoms of things that you're experiencing, and um, then you can isolate from there. So that's how I recommend.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

We're gonna pause here, but don't worry, the conversation continues. In the meantime, while you wait for part two to drop, I'd recommend that you also listen to the solo episode where I talk about lens five of the Caribbean diaspora experience model, which explores how culture impacts the way we show up at work. I've placed the link in the show notes. And as always, thank you for being part of the Carry On Friends community. And until next time, walk good.