SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, this is Carrie Ann Reed Brown, and this is Carry On Friends, the Caribbean American Podcast. Everyone, welcome to another episode of Carry On Friends, the Caribbean American Podcast. I'm excited today. I've already been, I know it's going to be a really good show because the pre-recording, you know, the pre-on here conversation is good. So my guest for today is Jackie Glenn. Jackie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited for us to get into our conversation. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I am great, blessed and highly favored, Carrie Ann. I am so excited, honored to be your guest today.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Ah, love it, love it. Thank you so much. All right. So why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit about who you are, Caribbean country you represent, your um professional background, and all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Okay, so um Jacqueline Glenn is my full name. Um, and I hail from the sunny island of Jamaica. And so travel globally. Um, I recently left my position as vice president of global diversity and inclusion at Dell EMC. Prior to that, at EMC, I was the chief diversity officer. In total, I spent about 18, 19 years at EMC and Dell, and left um July of 2018. Wrote my first book, my it's an instructional biography, as I like to call it, Lift as I Climb, an immigrant girl's journey through corporate America. Um the book debuted number 10 on the Amazon bestseller list last April. And I just this week celebrate my one-year anniversary as an author and the launching of the book. After I left Dell EMC, a lot of the executives that I worked with at EMC also left with me and I called me to come work with them. And so I decided to launch my own consulting business, Glenn Diversity and HR Solution LLC. So I'll stop there. I'm from a family of 10 from Kingston, Jamaica. I'm not stopping. I am the middle child of 11, I should say. And I came to this country as a nanny. And I'll stop there because you know what I left. I started off by saying my corporate role as an executive, but I started out as a nanny in a little town in Kansas City called Shawnee Mission, Kansas.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

So Ms. Ms. Jackie, yeah. Tell everyone how the journey there, and you know, like nanny to DNI executive.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

So the journey started, you know, being in Jamaica. Um, if you're Jamaican or you're you're from any island, you're listening to this. Um, you know, you're there, you go to school, and I was graduating from Oli Trinity, if you guys know, I'm and I went to a typing school, and my mom had a friend who always came. Um her name was Mrs. Openimere. She was a Jewish woman and she always brought her family out to Jamaica and vacation. And she fell in love with my mom's cooking because my mom was a serious cooking. She could cook it. She um asked my mom what I was gonna be doing now that I'm out of school. And of course, my mom said, ask me, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And she said she was looking for someone to come and be nanny and homeschool or two kids in Shroudeman, Kansas. So, you know, I was always one um carrier and to anytime it's an opportunity, you know, from a lickle, because let me backtrack a little bit and tell you that my mom at 11 of us, but my one person, one of the my siblings died really young and right after she was born. So 10 of us. And my mom, you know, really had a warm time um raising us, but we never go to bed ever, ever hungry. But I had an aunt who lived in Jamaica and she didn't have any children, and she asked my mom if I could come live with her. So the majority of my life, I lived with my aunt Daisy, in Waltham Gardens, and so she really was instrumental in um, you know, I would go and see my mom on the weekend, but she took care of me because she had already been in Jamaica and she wanted me there. So I went because, you know, there I was her only child and I got all of the trappings that came with that. And so when Mrs. Openamir asked if I wanted to come, I did not even blink an eye. I raised my hand. I did have older siblings, but nobody wanted to go, so I went. So she filed for me. And back in those days, you know, I was 19, almost 20. She filed for me, and I remember and the green card, I guess green card our stuff was easy back then. Um, I went there and I remember when I got off the plane in Kansas, they had a sign with my name on it. And remember, old people was leaving Jamaica. I forgot Mark I used to dress up, dress up. But an airport. Yeah, but they go, we have been gallery and I had this nice pretty dress on. And when I got into Shawnee Mission, Kansas, and I saw my name on a plaque, I started crying. I don't even know why. I guess you know, if the reality set in that I was not in Jamaica anymore, and so to speed it up, that's how I got there. I took care of two um little kids, David and Alison, who are grown adults now. And you know, Mrs. Pennymere was nice, but I tell people all the time, and if you read my book, I talk about that was not easy for a 19, 20-year-old to see Shawnee Mission. I think that the that I was the first black person they ever saw there, um, Carrie Ann. And even though the family was great to me, I literally work seven days a week for two years.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, when you are a living nanny, you know, there is no real end and start time. You know, you're I mean, technically, they'll technically say yes, but you know, you really work around the clock.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

No, Monday to Friday, I was babysitting David and Alex on the weekend. I was ironing Mr. Apenymere sure till my foot burned me. And the only persons that I saw that looked like me was the gardener, the UPS guy, and the mailman. And love me used to wait at the door. I couldn't see them. I could not wait to see them because those are, and Mr. Penimere was so wonderful. She would take me to the mall in Missouri and leave me there for hours just to walk around, and I would say hello to every person of color I saw.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

You missed home a lot, and you missed people who looked like you. Yes, yeah, because you stick out like us through me. I live in the Midwest, you know, so you know, you know, maybe not at that time, but I definitely know what it's like to you know be in a place where there's there's little less of you, more of them, and it's almost like you're you're a novelty.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, you're an anomaly. You definitely are, and you know, um, if I don't want to give away everything in my my book because I want the the audience to go get it on Amazon or on my website, but um I talk about a couple of incidents um that was not so pleasant that happened to me when I was in Shawnee Mission, um racial incident, you know, that really left an indetta of a mark on me in terms of the work that I'm doing now. Um, you know, and you know, I like to always say, Karen, I don't think anybody gets up every day and say, today I'm gonna be a racist or I'm gonna be discriminatory against people, but I think people are who they are. And if you don't make a um uh intentional and deliberate um decision to be um to fight what you um grew up with or what you learned, learned behavior, it it comes easily to some people.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, you're you're very right. It takes intention and the the the struggle with you know the inherently bad. So, but that's a whole different conversation. Okay, so you went to Shawnee and then um um so what's the so how did you end up deciding? So you know what, later for this, enough.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

So I went to Shawnee Mission, and oh originally the the the deal was I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna work with her for two years. You know, when you know they're all wonderful people, no matter what color. Mr. Penimir was a wonderful woman, and she in the beginning said, I want to get you over here, but you're you don't have, you know, it's not gonna be your life forever. And so after two years, she knew that I had family in Boston, and she packed me up and sent me on my way because I had fulfilled my green card obligation, and um, she sent me to Boston. And Boston was where a lot of my father's um uh cousins and aunts, all of my aunts were here. Um that um I came to live with in Boston, and that's how I ended up in Boston.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Man, I tell you, you know, just the journeys that we take, you know, to get here. It's boy, it's uh a remarkable time, you know, just to to when you think of how you, your, your mom and even you at 19 just you know took on that risk and the fear that you had to work through and and how you ended up here. So let's talk a little bit, let's push forward a little bit because I don't want to give away you know some of the book because you talked about this in the book, but now you've you've you've moved to Boston and you've gone through the ropes and now you you you've you're in DNI.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah. So I moved to Boston and just really fast forward decided, okay, now I can go get a job. So I went and got a job at the hospital Monday to Friday, and then I was living with my aunt, and I, you know, didn't really have much to do. And you're in America, you can well work round the clock if you want. So then I got a job on the weekend. So I was working seven days a week, and then I started going back to community college. So I went to Bunker Hill Community College in Boston, and then I in the midst of all of that, I met my husband, and then after that, finished. I met um, I started moving up at the hospital. I started out as a clerk, met my husband, got married, had babies, and then went back to graduate school while I was um I had my second daughter, and just really just kept moving, you know. Um, talk about, you know, having different iron in the fires, working, going to school full-time, being a wife, and really started moving and climbing the ladder in HR. My first job in HR was a receptionist. And I honestly believe that no matter what job you are, you get, or what job you're doing, you can show up at that position. Um, that position, let me put it a different way. The position doesn't necessarily have to define you. Let me tell you what I mean by that, Karen. When I was a unit clerk on the patient floor, I used to wear a suit to work every day because you know Jamaican people extra. So when you dress like back foot, as my mother would say, I was dressed up. And people would say to me, Where are you going all dressed up? And I told them, my mom always tells me to dress for the part that you want, not for the job that you have. Even that little woman from Jamaica that have an eighth-grade education, she always told me to dress for the part that I want. She's very big on appearance and how you show up. And I started at that, and people never forget me. So I moved from the unit clerk, went into the office, started working as a receptionist, and everybody from the island who came to apply for a job remembered me. And I talk a lot about brand. And I would talk to people on the phone and tell them I have their application, we're looking at it, and I'll get back. And one day, when I was not on the phone, someone called the office and said, I would like to speak to the woman with the accent. And it dawned on me, Carrie Ann, that my accent was a differentiator, and I couldn't afford to be mean to anyone because they would know who I am. And from there on, it was a pivotal moment around customer service, guarding your brand. And that got me, people would come in, they would want to see me, and they just started promoting me. So I went from a receptionist to a recruiter, and I was in charge of recruiting all the people in the housekeeping department, the kitchen, laundry, all of the people that helped keep keep the hospital clean. And there was an incident where, you know, our people would come in and they wouldn't care what job they get, they just wanted to work. And someone would tell somebody there's a Jamaican woman that hired people, and 50 million of their family would come. No, I was not a discriminator. I would have hired everyone. But what I ended up getting was a call from my boss one day and said, there was a complaint against you that you're only hiring people from the islands. And I literally went into my um, you know, my record keeping and I showed them how much other people have hired. Because you know, minorities, a lot of minorities and you know, people in the underserved community are the ones who take these jobs. And when I looked at it, the data showed that I would hire everyone, whether or not you um came from Trinidad, Tobago, Jamaica, Antigua, Guam, Puerto Rico, I would hire you. But you know, a lot of the people that I would hire that were born here that were African American wouldn't keep the job because they would say to me, Jackie, you know, I don't want to do this job and I'm better off, you know, I'd I'd rather not. And so that was really a stigma that people said I hired only per se my people, but I hired everyone. And what I found out when I left there for the next job was that, you know, people from the islands just want to get a job when they come here. And the way I explained it to my boss was in these islands, they don't have welfare, they don't have any help from our aid from the government. So when people come to this country and they can get a job and get a paycheck, they're gonna do a ton of jobs and they're gonna hold on to it. And so I did that. I moved up and then I became an HR business partner. And from there, I left there and went to another healthcare facility, and then I was a manager, and then I just kept moving, and then I decided to get out of healthcare around 20 years ago and decided to go into technology. And so I took a job with the company EMC as a manager and quickly rose through the rank of director, senior director, and then was the chief diversity officer for a 60,000 employee company technology company globally in 2016 Dell Bop EMC, which brought us to 140 plus employees. And I stayed there for a year and a half as Dell EMC and decided to leave. And so my journey has been one that I would never ever um change because you know I've traveled the world, I've spoken, and I've kept my identity all over. I was telling a class last night that I was lecturing at Suffolk University online, and I was telling them that one of the things that I least enjoyed about Jackie Glenn was my accent. And I had to learn over the years to own my accent because I was given a job, and God is really funny. He gave me a job where I had to speak a lot, and so I was either gonna um either become really comfortable with my accent or get fired. And so I chose to become use my accent as my differentiator, and I was telling the student that anything that you don't like about yourself, you can use that as a brand differentiator. I I was in Ireland years ago speaking, opening a conference, and normally when I travel the word, I hit the stage. Good afternoon, good evening, good morning. My name is Jackie Glenn, and I hail. Be sure to pronounce that H that we drop as Jamaican. I hail from the sunny island of Jamaica. So right there and then, Carrie Ann, I get it out of the way where I'm from, and I answer that question. And I'm comfortable with the fact that I am Jamaican. I have an accent. Sometimes I drop my H, I drop my S's, but I'm at it where it's the supposed to go. Right. S's and H and you know, all of that. But you can understand what I have to say. So over the years, I've worked on slowing down, doing active listening, but really slowing down, sometimes even over-pronouncing the words so people would understand me, but still owning who I am as an immigrant, as a Jamaican, as a woman of color, as a mother, a wife, a daughter, and now a glam mom.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Glam mom. Um, Jackie, I just love the story. You know, I read the book and the story that you told about getting comfortable with your accent. It, you know, I have two experiences with that story. So um, most in in 2010, 11, I think more 11 or 12, you know, I was doing some interview and I interviewed a young man who went to one of the local colleges here in New York. And so I was asking the question, you know, what do you think is a strength and a weakness? And I'll never forget, you know, when he told me his weakness was his accent. I listened to him, I listened to him finish it. And I, you know, you I can tell as, you know, Jamaican to Jamaican, because he he did say, you know, he's Jamaican, that, you know, he's him fresh, him just come. So him, you know, the accent is still a little strong. And I said, don't ever say your accent is a weakness. And it was just like, you know, after the interview finish and everything, I said, Don't, you know, just a tip, your accent is not a weakness. And I said, you know, your accent, just like you said, is a differentiator. Yeah, it's a brand differentiator. And and like you, you know, I've struggled with overpronunciation. A lot of times, I sometimes, you know, back in Jamaica when I say your lapse where you twang and it go between the patois and the twanging. When the upset, yeah, listen. So, you know, overpronouncing because I'm pronouncing it the between the Jamaican, the British way, and trying to do the American way. And so it don't come out quite right. And so, my very first experience with my accent, I um I was in high school here, and I remember the teacher Monty, big up Mr. Montvano. He wanted me on the moot court and the mock child team. And of course, moot court mock child is woolipa talking, right? You're right, you know, so I remember, you know, Monty was very clear that he wanted me to be, you know, the speaker on the moot court um team. And I was like, no, you know, I don't sound all prim and proper. Monty was like, I don't care about prim and proper. You are the one that's going to do it. And it was Monty, you know, uh and this Italian who who was like, I guess the word now is um an advocate or an ally who made sure, like, listen, forget what your accent or what you think your accents sound like. You are capable of doing this, you should do this. And, you know, the other day I was talking to my mom and she's like, whatever happened to Monty? I said, I'm on Facebook and I'm on Instagram, on in my everything I post, he likes it. And he, and she was like, he was always a nice teacher, always pushing for you. And now I recognize that, you know, if I had if if I didn't have him behind me to encourage me to say, forget your accent. I know you can do this job. I know you can do this role, do it. And doing that role gave me so many opportunities, but that struggle of um tree instead of three, yeah, are you know, like my husband and I, we would say, you know, to the kids, like you get maths homework. It's like it's not mats, it's math. You know, like it's little just little things that I'm so self-conscious about.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, we have three children. We have um a son and two daughters, and my daughter, one um is a New York attorney who just moved to Charlotte, and the other one lives in New York. She's a social media um uh marketing automation specialist, whatever she calls herself. But they always kid with me and said, love, mommy, that's not out of myself, left me alone because people understand me. And I feel like, you know, one of my missions, one of the reasons why I wrote the book, Carrie Ann, Lift as I Climb, um, and the subtitle and immigrant girls' journey to corporate America. The lifting is a huge part of who I am as just um Jackie. And I really feel passionate about reaching back and lifting, especially young girls of color, and especially, you know, with with a um with an immigrant background, I am so um dedicated to want to seeing the other Jackies that are out there that are just coming through and lifting up, whether or not they're men and women, but really big on the girls because sometimes we get so hard on ourselves. And you know, we I and because I have two daughters and want to be a role model, so the lifting is a huge part of, you know, if I can make it through everything that I've gone through and still come out, you really have to, you know, find, dig deep, and find things in you that you know can be a differentiator. And I never told this story, but I want to tell you a quick story around branding and owning the things about yourself that you don't necessarily love and wish was my accent. I remember um I was at a conference and I tell the story all the time because the artist people on us is our own people. And let me just be frank, our own black woman, we're not nice with each other some of the times. And usually when I go to speak, if I have an audience of all Caucasian women, I'm good. I'm all set. But if it's all women of color, I get all nervous because I'm like, oh my God, is my hair okay? Are they gonna talk about my hair? Are they gonna talk about because we're just won't cut each other slack. And I was at a conference for catering to all women of color, and I had to introduce um Serena Williams' sister. So um what Venus? I had to introduce Venus, and I had to pronounce she has an autoimmune disease called Sojourner or Satourna or D, something like that. I spend the entire night in my room trying to pronounce the disease um properly to these 1100 women of color, mostly black women. And I remember when we were in the green room, she said, Jackie, I can't even pronounce it. And so I went up and I did the best I can, and then I spelled it, and she came out and we both started laughing, and everybody started laughing. And I think sometimes we're just too hard on ourselves. And I've learned over the years that you know what, you take it, you do the best that you can, you make sure that you're not making because one of the things I always say to someone who has an accent, slow it down and take your time. And so my coach always says to me, Jackie, even if you go over your time, just take your time, enjoy the moment up there in the limelight and stop hurrying up and trying to come off because when you do that, you get so nervous that people are not going to be able to understand, and your delivery will be so. Now I go up, I slow it down, and now I'm fine. I don't have that problem anymore. But when I was coming up through the ranks, it's really important for people to, you know, calm it down. And I also believe that practice make perfect because at another time I was introducing um Viola Davis at another woman's conference. And my sister was in my room with me the night before, and she said to me, My sister lives in New Jersey. She said, Why don't we practice an under time the speech? And it's like, please, we're gonna talk, do another time. And you know what? I did as much as I could, but guess what happened? I'm in the grooming room with Viola Davis. I'm so star-struck. I'm there chatting it up with her. Don't you know when we were ready to hit the stage? I walked out of the green room and leave the top of my speech in the green room. I get to the podium, she's waiting on the stairs to come up. I'm getting ready to introduce. I looked on at page too. So I decided, okay, Jackie, this is why you should have the 100 times it was necessary. And I started out by saying, you know, even the best-laid plan sometimes goes awry. And so I forget the top part of my speech in the room, but I want to thank my sister, Sandra Bailey, who is in the audience, for letting me practice the speech a hundred times because here we go. And so I just went in on it and I had it down path. And then just when I was forgetting what I needed to say, I had the second page. And so practice does make perfect.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Wow. You said a lot there. And I just want to go back to the cultural, you know, I don't I don't want to lose sight of the lift as I climb. That comes from generations of the phrase one hand wash the other, right? Yes, yes, and we just know that it's just built in our DNA, or you're you, you know, clearly from you and us talking that, you know, we pay it forward because we were given a gift, that we were given an opportunity. And in order for us to to to gain more advancements, we have to help other people. And also we recognize that, you know, you know, from even learning from my grandparents, you know, you plant seed because it may not, you may not get it back, but your pitney and your pitney pitney them and everybody else is getting it back. So like it's just planting the seeds of good deeds so you can reap that, not necessarily in this generation, but future generations. I really love that that's kind of the the the center, you know, like you are really clear on that is something that's very important to you. So I really, really appreciate it because that's what you're doing with me, you're not right. No, right? You're paying it forward, telling yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Absolutely. I always say, you know, and I think somewhere in my book, I quote Mayela Jackson's song, if I can help somebody as I passed along, then my living is not invaded. That was one of my mom's favorite sayings. My mom is deceased, she died about 20 years ago from stomach cancer. And I always quote that because I really do believe that, you know, we're here, we are some of the fortunate ones who got a chance to um leave our beloved island and come here and do good. And my mom always says, if you get that opportunity, a lot of people don't get that opportunity to make good use of it and help people, give back. And somewhere in the book, I talk about not leaving anyone metaphorically at the bus stop. Because when I just came to Boston, it was so cold. I'm alternately foot a freeze, and I just would look at those cars passing. And I remember when I got to a point, Carrie, and where I felt like I could afford it. My husband is a car fanatic, and every time someone from Jamaica came and we met them, if they had any archery, my husband always has a spare car, we would give it to them, even family or friends, because we felt like you know, we wanted to fulfill that promise that I made to myself that I would never leave anyone at the bus stop.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

And we know oy feel at up at the bus stop and they call.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Especially when you're not used to the suburb cool, you're like, what your nose is running and you don't even know, and it's just cool. And I kept saying, Lord, why? But I know the plans he has for me, he said to prosper and not to army to give me an opener future. And so, you know, my future has been so bright and continue to be so bright. And anytime I get the opportunity to pass it along to someone, I am readily available to do that.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Man, Jackie, I'm just loving this conversation. So let me just go over to you now being the chief diversity officer. Like, what does that role entail? And you know, DNI is a buzzword, diversity and inclusion is a buzzword now, but really, what does it mean? What does that work look like? And like, you know, I think that that role is mostly in very large corporate or in tech environments versus, you know, most people may be in small or mid-sized companies where HR kind of it falls entirely on the HR. But tell me a little bit about the role, what it entails, and what, you know, what just just I just I guess share your experience. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

So as at the role as a chief diversity officer was um, you know, really to set the goals and strategy for the organization globally on, you know, where the company is going to focus as it pertains to diversity and inclusion. And when what that really means in a nutshell is that when you look at the type of company that I worked with, it was a technology company, and one of the focus was uh for unrepresented minority. And that necessarily was women and um African American, black, Hispanic people that, you know, technology is usually made up of um white guys, and so the majority of the population there are white guys, and um, they really wanted someone to come in and to take a look at the landscape and put together programs and strategies in place so that we can sort of build the pipeline of the next leaders that were coming up globally. So that was my job to work with I reported into HR, so it was to work with HR, with the business leaders to set goals and strategy around how we recruit, retain, and develop um underrepresented minority and women in the technology field. And so, you know, that that would was what we do. Now, something that you said that I wanted to expand upon. It's yeah, chief diversity officers' role are usually in large corporations, but now in in the past maybe 10, 15 years, it has migrated to a lot of colleges and universities, have chief diversity officers. I have a lot of friends and a lot of small company diversity lead or head of diversity or director of diversity because it's such an important role. Um, demographic and the US census is showing that by the year um 2030 or 2040, the majority, you know, a lot of the states in the United States, it's gonna be majority minority. And so companies that are looking to compete and have the best and the brightest working for them is gonna have to have their workplace mirroring um the census data. Because if you have a workplace that's homogeneous and there's all one set of people working there, and I mean that, you know, even if you have a workplace and it's all women or all, you know, Caucasian or even all African American, you want to have a diverse group of people because study has shown there's so much studies out there carrying that show that when you have diversity, it breeds innovation. Now, you and I are from Jamaica and that's all good and well, but if you and I were to want to collaborate on something, we probably would want to get not just pure Jamaicans at the table, but maybe some people from Guyana, Barbados, Trinidad, um, you know, all over. And then we want to get people who were born here in the US and maybe somebody, a big part of my book that I find to be cool is that I didn't just put my voice in it, Carrie Ann. And I don't know if that struck you, but I showcased 10 immigrants from all over the world talking to my gems and how it shows up in their life. And I thought that what I wanted to do when I did that, Carrie Ann, was just, you know, people might read about me and said, yes, all right. But when they might read about Carolyn La Riviera from Germany, who um is also an immigrant and came to this country and speak on it, they may read on about Ceci from Ghana or Sumba from India or Betsy from Puerto Rico. And I know Puerto Rico is a part of the United States, but the way they treat Puerto Rico right now, they might as well be an immigrant country. So I featured my friend Betsy Silva from Puerto Rico. So that's one part of the book that I really love because I feel that when you have different voices at the table, I know that it breeds innovation and innovation breeds transformation. And without innovation and transformation, companies will die. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

And you know, that wasn't lost on me. You know, I tell, so when I started carrying on friends, you know, and people are like, Why do you focus on, you know, Caribbean-Americans? Well, I said, I'm I'm Jamaican, but you know, I'm part of a larger group of people from the Caribbean, so there's a diversity there. But also, what I'm talking about is an immigrant story. But because I'm not an immigrant from any other area but of the Caribbean, I'll focus here. So I did see that it was like really an immigrant story to say that they are commonalities in our story. I remember I worked at a technology company and my in the marketing team. And, you know, um, I there was another person from with of Caribbean heritage, I believe her parents were from Barbados, and then someone else on my team, her parents are from um China. And it's like we all tell the story. Everybody come up, the whole family then puck up in a one house, and then as they can afford, everybody spring out and gone to their own house. And, you know, like food and this, you know, bringing lunch to to school and how it's embarrassing, you know, like just different, different angles of a similar story. And so I did, I did catch that and I was really, you know, grateful, like even even why I reached out to you because actually my friend Michaela saw the article and she's like, carry your after interviewer because I feel like you answer she go get along because a lot of what you were saying or you are currently saying was my experience. But at the time when I was experiencing this and I wanted a mentor, I couldn't find anybody. I couldn't find anybody who could help me, you know, like I knew I had my accent and you know, I couldn't find anyone who would just really, you know, support my growth to the next level that I wanted to. And so that's kind of how the podcast started. So it's like striking out blindly, you know, and going back to what you were saying, sometimes we look for help and we don't get it. And in a way, it's God saying, Are you fiduet? You know, start it or just something. So I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because I feel like, you know, a lot of times, you know, there's a balance with cultural appreciation. But I I'm I also say we don't want to be blinded by our cultural habits because they keep us stuck. And, you know, it's like the things, you know, even even and and it's not necessarily cultural. I think of it as parenting too. You know, I'll do certain things. And so, you know, like my daughter looks at me like side eye because the little ones get away with things, and it's because I'm a different parent from when she was there. And if I had stuck to the same ways with her that I did with the younger ones, I wouldn't, you know, it wouldn't reflect how I've evolved as a parent. So, you know, for the audience, we, you know, our or for a community, it's sharing how, you know, yes, we're we work hard and we do what we have to do, but you know, we we've talked about this offline to hold your head down and do your work, you know, work. So over here you have to socialize, you have to this, and and culturally we don't like to do that a lot. So I want to switch gears a little bit. I know what what were some of the challenges that you had to deal with in terms of at work and you know, socialization or like some things that you felt like culturally are the norm, but they they kind of made it challenging for work. So, like, what was something that, you know, I saidn't tell we for the things at Jamaica or so when I do it, but at work it was like, no, this is not something that's gonna make you get promoted or you know, because we can we can rule out that we're hard workers, right? That's not a problem. We can't rule that out. Two, we can't rule out so we're just like cut pus to go work. We're not fit, we can't rule that out. Yes, yeah, we we not have no problem and look like Dappa Dan and you know, at work. So, what are some other areas culturally that you know we laugh about and we're aware of, but they be they they can be challenges or blind blinders for us at work.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

So, you know, as you were as you were talking, I one came to mind, and I'm so glad that you're asking me because I was gonna chime in and I said, let me wait was, you know, my mom raised me and she always said to all of us, you know, self-praise is no praise at all. I'm sure you've heard it. And you know, sit on and be quiet and just put your head down or work. But that does not work in corporate America or anywhere these days. And when if you what I found out, that for me um was a huge uh-a moment when I decided to depart from that and and to start big up myself on the work I did. Because, you know, if you're not gonna self-praise because your family, you know, modesty, don't look people in the eye and all of that, that's something we grew up with, but it's such a career derailer. Because while everybody is in the office or at the staff meeting talking about them move a 10 and then put it here and then move a 10 and then put it there, you sitting down there where you were there in the office all night, you got 15 reports done, and nobody don't know about it, but you and your boss, and your boss is certainly if your boss is not that type of boss to give you props, nobody will know about it. And so um, that whole notion of self-praise, you know, I what I wrote one of the chapters in my book is on boldness, and I really talk about you know, boldness not being rude, but being bold, um, CC uh uh agafu. And I know I just wisher his name is from Ghana. And he talked about you have to be bold in your um self and what you have to offer. And he told a story coming from Ghana and being the youngest on his team, and he raised his hand and asked his boss if he could go bid for this contract because experienced people on his team went to do it and they couldn't get it. And the boss gave him the side eye, as we would say, but made him do it anyway. And he went in and won the um won the contract, and I just sort of um gave you the convent version. This gone are the days when people are not gonna step forward, and you know, you don't have to overdo, overkill, and give yourself appraise or said, here's what I'm proud of about myself, here's what I did, here's what I'm proud of. And really taking the ad land and said, you know what, here's what I feel and how I feel. I was lecturing last night at Suffolk's via Zoom, and this young lady was saying to me, you know, Jackie, you know, I tend to ratchet it back and don't want to say much. And I said, now that you're in a leadership role, you're gonna have to say something because, in the absence of silence, people are gonna think you don't have no sense. So you gotta say something. And even if you can't say it because you feel like people are drowning you out, when you get back to your deck, send them a long email. Here's my thoughts since I didn't get a chance. So, this whole thing about self-praise and not speaking up and then not socializing with your coworker, Guan Wom, you know what, even if you don't drink. I did myself a disservice for years because I wouldn't go to things with my coworker and all the news and all the lavish as we'd said and I would be in the out. And then I started going and having a ginger ale and all of that, and you would not believe the things you've learned. And so, even if you don't do it often, but you do it, you go out and you get, you know, I go to um invite my coworker, especially the ones that I think have a chip on their shoulder about me. I would invite them to lunch and I would pay and I would just hit the nail on the head and said, you know, I read your um feedback on me, and while, you know, it didn't make me feel good, I'd love to know how we can fix this. And this is like literally like taking the bull by the orange. And, you know, we tend to be have been raised to be passive, and especially if the person is white, you know, but I talk back to them because you don't want to lose your job. But you know, my mother didn't raise any fools, so I really in the in the long run encourage people to be bold, to be self-aware while they're being bold, but and to give yourself the props. Now, I have two daughters, and boy, I'm telling you, these millennials, I love them to death. But you know, I'm not telling my daughter them that you know, because my daughter, Alicia Glenn, she thinks she's me. So I don't tell her about no self-praise, because I raised my daughter um knowledge is power, and you know, they um and I raised them on this saying that you have to A S K to G-E-T. And I'm telling you, my my New York daughter, the boat of them, but Alicia, she will ask you for anything, Carrie Ann, anything. And she always reminded me, mom, you told you raised me to ask to get, and I did. And so I really do believe some of the ways that we were raised, especially me being a boomer, um, is not relevant right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

What you're saying, there are themes. Even if you are a boomer, there are cultural themes. So, you know, on your end of the island, you know, it's self-praise is no praise, but self-praise is no recommendation was the other, it's the paraphrasing of that, right? And then we look at other things like see, um speak when spoken to answer when told, be seen and not heard, and culturally how we deal with authority, roles of authority, and we talk about not because you you know your manager is white or whoever, it doesn't mean that you're supposed you're not supposed to advocate or speak up for yourself. So those those things impact us. And and adversely, you know, when some Caribbean people get into managerial roles, they they they they feel like, oh, it's it's it's time to abuse those roles because you're now in authority. So you know, a lot of how culture, you know, plays a role in how we we impact. And and trust me, I know about not going out. And I I had a webinar the other day and we talked about it, like sometimes it's frustrating. You know, I live in New York and you know, I'm gonna wanna bar because that means I may have to go home late, the train them stop run, me after take bus go home, all of this. But once in a while, going out and nurse Ms. Early Temple coming and go drink, me watch on a drink and go on like on a nano sense, but you know, like you know, just just engaging for a little bit because they they also seeing you not coming out, it they they don't know you, right? And then it it is not intentional that they don't trust you, they just don't know you, and you work with people who you know and you like, and that's the reality of it, right? So I love I love the story like boldness, be you have to toot your own hand because if them don't know you do it, you're not getting on promotion, you're not doing nothing, and and and worse, somebody go take rec praise for something while you do.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

And you know, one of the things as women of color that I know that, you know, and I think it's across the board is that you know, we tend to one I know for my personality in the book I write about having my first board meeting with my having my first C-suite meeting and going into my CEO to present to my CEO. And when I walked into the room, and I don't want to give away the book, but that catch my eye, Miss Jackie.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

When Marie part I laugh, it's smaller pieces.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

But I felt like now what am I gonna do? I, you know, I told everyone that when I walk into that room, I had a Rosa Park moment. And for my African American sisters who were born in this country, I really felt like you know, Rosa Park fought and got arrested for me to not sit in the back. When I walk into that room on the side of the room, Chair in the back of the room. And I was there with my boss, who was a female, and she decided to leisurely go sit in on the side. And I decided, you know what? This is now or never. I can go do that, or I can make a joke of it and take my chair. And so I pick up a chair and I went right next to my CEO and tell him to smile up himself. And they busted out laughing, and it was such a joke. And years later, even every single time he sees me, he would tell me to smile up myself. I love it. Yeah, and I, you know, I believe that sometimes, you know, when you're in a situation that is not ideal, instead of getting mad and getting all crazy and um have them put label on us that's not deserving, you know, sometimes, and not everyone can do this, but my style is humor. And, you know, my my boss that was there with me said to me, I can't believe you did that. I would have because she, you know, everybody's different. And, you know, I thought she thought I was a bit much, but it worked, and I got my seat at the table, and that's what I was there for. And the meeting went on and it calms everyone down. I was doing a budget presentation around diversity, and diversity is never easy to talk about, especially when you're talking about the race part of it, or you know, so it just sort of kind of lightened the mood in the room and give up everyone a chance to have a laughter moment. And so, you know, that's who I am. I don't expect everyone to take my persona, but um, if people can just go in on the lighter side, um, I think a lot of time our Caucasian brother and sister are seeking to understand, um, not all of them, but some of them. And if we can use it, like I always tell people, I like to use things as a teachable moment. And I felt like that because nobody was taking the initiative to make space, I taught them and I use humor.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

So find what you're comfortable with. It could be humor, it could be something else, and you know, break the ice, break the tension, whatever that is. I love it. I love it. So I had one question, and you know, we'll see. Like, are there any misconception around diversity and inclusion that you want to share with our audience, especially for people of color, like what our expectations are versus what is reality that you want to kind of help us frame or understand to help us, you know, I don't I don't know. I I'm I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

You know, I think I think there's several. We could be on this podcast for a while, but I think a lot of times I'm writing a blog um for this website in Nebraska. And I one of the points that I'm making is that just because you're a person of color, um, you are a black or brown person, um, doesn't mean you're a diversity expert. Yes, you might have some expertise in the fact that you've lived in that the body as a woman of color um or a black person or a brown person or you know, a Latinx, but it doesn't mean you're an expert. And a lot of times, organization, because that happened to me, see that you're the only one of color and they pick you to run diversity. Diversity is not for the faint-arted. I like to tell people that if you are not gonna be speak true to power, because it's really take expertise, and just because a person is in the category of underrepresented minority, whether that's a woman or um uh, you know, uh black or Hispanic or Latinx person or Latino, doesn't mean they're diversity expert. And I I really want people to understand that because there's a lot more that goes into it. There's a lot of tough and courageous conversations that needs to take place, and you have to call people out on if they hire you and want you and put you in a role to be the diversity person and it's just for show, then you need to figure that out and ask yourself the question do you want to do that? Or do you want to go in and do you want to do real work? And because I said last year I was at a workshop, and I said, you know, a lot of times they put people in these diversity roles and they make it worse because they go in and they they they essentially are just yes people and are just dare to take up space and and take up air and not really doing the the hard work of speaking true to power. And I think that if you're not able to do that, then you shouldn't take the role on as a DNI practitioner.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

You know, I agree. I've I've seen a lot of conversations where people do talk about that. So I'm glad you brought that up. And so the other question that I have as we wrap up, is there, you know, other than reading the book, right? And and you'll get to share that information, because I think it was just a valuable um book. It's not a long book, it's a nice quick read. Um, anything that you want to share, especially, you know, the elephant in the room, we didn't get to talk about it, but in this in this COVID-19 world that we're in, right? Anything you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_01 49:09

So, you know, I mean, I think that first I'd like to share with people to link in with me if you're listening. It's Jackie Glenn with two N's and um you'll see um you'll recognize me once you um type in Jackie Glenn on LinkedIn. But also take a look at my WEN website, glenndiversity.com, and you can also order a book from there, also. I also run a consultant practice that specializes in coaching, um, executive coach, and I coach a lot of mid-level managers, leaders, and executives. So if anyone is listening and need a coach, hit me up. But also just remembering as if you're an immigrant and you are doing work out there, is to remember to lift as you climb. Carrie Ann reached out to me, she didn't have to, and I responded. I think too often we're so caught up and busy that we're not remembering to do one thing to help someone. And I'm open with this podcast that I'll get a bunch of new friends. And um, because Carrie Ann and I are friends already, and we have not actually met each other in person. So that is to fight the good fight, be who you are, stay authentic but not rude, continue to show empathy, operate always in integrity, and always rest and rely on your faith, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Yeah, I love it. Jackie, thank you so much. I really enjoyed the conversation. We're gonna talk about so much more, but maybe that's another episode down the road. But thank you so much for joining. I'll make sure I put links, um, all the links that you mentioned in the show notes. And as I like to say at the end of the show, walk good.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Walk good.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Take care.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Thanks a bunch.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

You've been listening to Carry On Friends, a show about the Caribbean American experience. We post new episodes every two weeks. And if you want to learn more, buy merchandise, or sign up for our newsletter, check out our website, carryonfriends.com.